Stop complaining and pay programmers more • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#11

Post by starkfist » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 1:57 AM UTC

vaksel wrote: post #8

amock wrote: post #2

How will offering a higher salary deter less qualified people? It seems like it will attract more of all kinds of programmers.

I'd imagine the incompetent ones wouldn't bother applying to jobs that are "way out of their league". If you are "sucky" you might still apply for a $60K job, thinking that you might slide through. But you wouldn't bother applying to a $100K job, thinking that there'd be way more competent people applying so it'd be a waste of time

I'd imagine the incompetent ones wouldn't bother applying to jobs that are "way out of their league".

Never done hiring before, eh?

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#12

Post by chime » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 1:58 AM UTC

j_baker wrote: post #5

You have to understand: there's more to hiring programmers than paying lots of money. If that were the case, we wouldn't have had a dot-com bust and software companies would be dominated by MBAs. That's the hard part of hiring programmers. How do you incentivize the good ones to work for you? If you have a solution to that problem, I suspect you'll be a very much in-demand person.

> How do you incentivize the good ones to work for you? If you have a solution to that problem, I suspect you'll be a very much in-demand person.

Bonuses, perks, and congrats on jobs well-done. If I spend 40 hours between Dec 31 and Jan 2 writing up a new wireless barcoding system because the powers that be decided at the last minute to begin the new year with a different process for warehousing, I better get a damn bonus, at least 1.5 x 40 hours of my rate. You know what I got upon successful completion of my last-minute project? "chime, if you had originally developed a flexible enough system to accommodate changing of bin/zone locations, you wouldn't have had to work in the last minute." I resigned from that job.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#13

Post by DomesticMouse » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 1:58 AM UTC

vaksel wrote: post #8

amock wrote: post #2

How will offering a higher salary deter less qualified people? It seems like it will attract more of all kinds of programmers.

I'd imagine the incompetent ones wouldn't bother applying to jobs that are "way out of their league". If you are "sucky" you might still apply for a $60K job, thinking that you might slide through. But you wouldn't bother applying to a $100K job, thinking that there'd be way more competent people applying so it'd be a waste of time

You'd imagine wrong, if my past experience is anything to go by.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#14

Post by timr » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 2:00 AM UTC

amock wrote: post #2

How will offering a higher salary deter less qualified people? It seems like it will attract more of all kinds of programmers.

"How will offering a higher salary deter less qualified people?"

You've got it exactly backwards: it's not intended to deter the unqualified, it's meant to attract the qualified.

And yes, high salaries do tend to attract good people. Maybe not exclusively, but it's an important factor. So, if the complaint is that "there are no good programmers" (and we assume that your screening process isn't totally arbitrary), there's a pretty good bet that you're not attracting good programmers from the places where they currently work. High salaries are a good way to do that.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#15

Post by ary » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 2:02 AM UTC

Let's also address the issue of interviewing. Most people can't tell a good programmer from a bad one (which is sad, really). There are also a ton of people out there that mistake higher percentile technical competence with software development competence. This recently got posted to HN and sums up the overall situation nicely:

http://www.rethinkdb.com/blog/2010/06/will-the-real-programm...

Pay is but one factor, and resume (or job description) plus salary requirements aren't going to communicate what you really need to know. More than 90% of the jobs I've interviewed for had laughable interview processes. I've asked harder questions of my interviewers than they've ever asked of me. Most people just don't get it.

A "competent" developer needs to be hard working, interested in your particular problem set, and like the work environment you've created. You need to dig in and find out what this person is really about. Even if they're competent they may not like your company, idea, or even you. These are things you, and they, need to find out before the hire.

You/They aren't finding competence because you/they aren't looking for it.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#16

Post by rubinelli » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 2:04 AM UTC

The best way to hire good programmers is by tapping into the network of the good programmers you already have. Everyone with a few years of experience has a short list of developers they'd like to work with again.

EDIT: sponsoring hackathons may be another way of finding great programmers. And don't forget the colleges in your area: if you have an interesting piece of technology you can show off, you can present a talk and hopefully get a handful of resumes.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#17

Post by scott_s » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 2:07 AM UTC

timr wrote: post #14

amock wrote: post #2

How will offering a higher salary deter less qualified people? It seems like it will attract more of all kinds of programmers.

"How will offering a higher salary deter less qualified people?" You've got it exactly backwards: it's not intended to deter the unqualified, it's meant to attract the qualified. And yes, high salaries do tend to attract good people. Maybe not exclusively , but it's an important factor. So, if the complaint is that "there are no good programmers" (and we assume that your screening process isn't totally arbitrary), th…

You may attract more qualified people, but the number of unqualified people may increase as well. Put another way, you may get more qualified people in absolute numbers, but the signal-to-noise ratio could go up, too.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#18

Post by mkn » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 2:08 AM UTC

If you've been around yc for more than a month, you've doubtless seen a number of links to articles on motivation as it pertains to creative activities like software development. The consensus is pretty clear. Incentives hurt productivity in creative activities.

This seems to have something to do with the relationship between creative effort and intrinsic vs. extrinsic motivation. The prospect of an incentive seems to gum up the creative works.

When you compound that with how difficult it is to recognize, let alone find good talent, especially with an interview process, you have a real conundrum.

Real conundrums are rarely solved by naive one-dimensional solutions like "offer more money." An actual solution would have to solve the dual problems of finding good help and not spoiling it with overt incentives.

Clearly there is a real problem here. Perversely, if you could solve it, you could make a lot of money!

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#19

Post by timr » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 2:11 AM UTC

scott_s wrote: post #17

timr wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"How will offering a higher salary deter less qualified people?" You've got it exactly backwards: it's not intended to deter the unqualified, it's meant to attract the qualified. And yes, high salaries do tend to attract good people. Maybe not exclusively , but it's an important factor. So, if the complaint is that "there are no good programmers" (and we assume that your screening process isn't totally arbitrary), th…

You may attract more qualified people, but the number of unqualified people may increase as well. Put another way, you may get more qualified people in absolute numbers, but the signal-to-noise ratio could go up, too.

"You may attract more qualified people, but the number of unqualified people may increase as well."

...which is why you have a screening process.

When people are complaining that there are no good programmers (and this is a common complaint on HN; it's not just a straw man), there's at least one of two things going on:

1) Their screening process sucks.

2) They aren't attracting good programmers.

High salaries help with #2.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#20

Post by alttab » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 2:15 AM UTC

mkn wrote: post #18

If you've been around yc for more than a month, you've doubtless seen a number of links to articles on motivation as it pertains to creative activities like software development. The consensus is pretty clear. Incentives hurt productivity in creative activities. This seems to have something to do with the relationship between creative effort and intrinsic vs. extrinsic motivation. The prospect of an incentive seems t…

Hey, you rationalize your pay grade anyway you want buddy, but speak for yourself.

I do what I do because I enjoy it, but I never take my eye off the bottom line - and either should you.