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Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwide temps

nytimes.com

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Re: Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwide temps

#291

Post by emodendroket »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #219
emodendroket wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think "don't worry; the Republican-controlled Congress will not cut funding on environmental initiatives" sounds like a bit of a pollyannaish proposition.

Can you tell when the US had a Democrat controlled Congress by looking at this global greenhouse gas emissions per year chart? I can't. https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/global-greenhouse-gas-emiss... I'm not saying there's no reason to worry, but there's also no reason to pretend that having the Democrats move pollution overseas solves global problems.

The Democrats are basically Republicans-lite and have been for decades but that's neither here nor there with regard to the point I'm making.

Re: Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwide temps

#292

Post by emodendroket »

thehardsphere wrote: post #254
emodendroket wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think "don't worry; the Republican-controlled Congress will not cut funding on environmental initiatives" sounds like a bit of a pollyannaish proposition.

Well, they didn't cut this particular program during the Bush years when the Congress was under Republican control also. That, and generally Republicans tend to do far less cutting than they say they are going to. They talk about it to get votes, but they rarely actually follow through. Again, see the last time they had control of Congress, when spending was considered to be through the roof when the deficit was only…

I'd say there's a difference between reducing spending overall, which I would agree they don't do (even Trump's budget in large part is about significant increases to military spending, for example), and reducing spending on particular causes, which I don't think is so far-fetched.

Re: Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwide temps

#293

Post by cestith »

cestith wrote: post #267
mjfern wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A SEER 13-14 system can run $5-6K, while a SEER 22 system can cost upwards of $15K (as a guesstimate). In theory, a SEER 22 system can pay for itself over the long-term due to reduced electric/gas expenses. The issue is that higher SEER systems, above 16 I believe, rely on variable speed motors. My understanding is that they are inherently less reliable. A SEER 13-16 system might last 15-20 years (if you're lucky), w…

Unless it raises the resale value of the home reliably, long-term payback is of little motivational value without job security or significant money in reserve. That's one of the uncomfortable microeconomic truths driving short-term decision making in things like cooling, solar power, and battery systems. Why would someone take out a loan or tie up a large portion of their liquid capital to see a ten-year payback on a…

Hey, this is HN. I'd love to discuss how I'm wrong or have someone provide links to refute anything I've said rather than random downvotes for posting something with unpleasant ramifications.

Re: Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwide temps

#294

Post by scottLobster »

npsimons wrote: post #242
erikpukinskis wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your thinking is a little short sighted. Yes, on a 20 year horizon replacing our existing inefficient stuff is wasteful. But on a 100 year time horizon, population will rise to 10 billion, and we'll turn over almost all of our climate systems. What I would propose is we start now thinking about what sustainable architecture looks like, and start trying to imagine more permanent cultural edifices. I.e. permacu…

I think you and the GP are on the same page, just coming from different angles. You say we need to change communities; how do you do that without first changing the culture? Why do people want to live in suburbs? I don't know how to do it, but if there is enough demand for more efficient lifestyles I believe the market will meet it.

Because most large cities (at least in America) are loud, cramped, polluted, with horrible traffic and hit-and-miss public transportation, the schools are usually worse, and if you want space for even minor luxuries like a small workshop for personal projects, home office, rec-room, or other standard features of a typical middle-class American house, you better be willing to pay through the nose for it. Paying through the nose goes for just about everything else in the city as well. Plus you won't get to use your personal property as an investment, because you likely won't have any living in a city.

Add in a lot of NIMBY residents who don't want any new residents moving into their neighborhoods, good luck making the city appealing to anyone who doesn't REALLY want to live there, or else has some business opportunity that makes living in the city worth their while.

Here in the states IMO we'd do better by making suburban lifestyles more efficient. Between electric cars, renewables and more efficient tech of all stripes coming around there's no reason we shouldn't be able to get suburban houses down to carbon-neutral. The amount of transformation major cities would have to undergo to appeal to suburban populations is just unrealistic by comparison.

Re: Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwide temps

#295

Post by toomuchtodo »

astrodust wrote: post #287
toomuchtodo wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At high humidity, you're still going to be hot and drenched in sweat. The only solution is energy efficient thermal transfer (AC, heat pump, etc) and dehumidification.

There are ways of doing this that don't involve expending energy, but it requires re-thinking the very concept of the modern house. A thousand years ago you had to build things this way, you had no alternative, but now it's taken for granted that air-conditioning will solve all problems.

For sure, but I can't get insurance (hurricane or otherwise) on a home built to 1000 year previous standards. Do I care if the house can't cool itself naturally? I don't; I can't get a mortgage on it because I can't get insurance on it if its not built to current code. Hence why we run into this problem (which will be solved with more efficient AC and renewable energy).

Re: Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwide temps

#296

Post by mikekchar »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #176
erikpukinskis wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because your house is designed with active cooling as a presumption. If your house was designed to utilize passive cooling effects (thermal mass, green roof, evaporative cooling, overhangs, shades, airflow compression, etc) your bedroom wouldn't get that hot.

> That's because your house is designed with active cooling as a presumption. No, it isn't. I have an enormous oak tree that overhangs the southern roof. My windows have a very low level of solar radiation they allow through. The ambient air temp at night is almost 80F. The house is built of concrete block, and stores heat during the day, releasing it at night. We're routinely at 60-80% humidity. Just waiting for som…

Not the OP and while I don't want to denigrate the way you live, I want to react the suggestion that other ways of living are impossible. Today, where I live it the high is going to be 32C (90F) with humidity of 87%. Pretty normal for this time of year. Usually in the summer (a little bit later on) we'll have a couple of weeks where the temperature never gets below 27-28C (80F). Been living here for about 10 years without AC. I'm not a spring chicken, either.

Construction makes a huge difference -- especially airflow. Whoever made my current apartment was a genius because in the winter, the south side gets sun through the windows for about 6 hours, while in the summer there is no direct sunlight in any window. My previous apartment was an oven.

North American attitudes to seasonal temperatures are different than where I live now. In the winter here, the lows here are near freezing (1-2C), and we always have a few days in the summer well over 40C (105F) (luckily once it gets over 35, the humidity drops quite a bit). It's quite normal here not to heat in the winter, nor cool in the summer. Experiencing the seasons is considered to be "culturally enlightening" ;-) And joking aside, I've found that I like this way of living. Like you, I would never have thought it possible before I tried it, though.

Having said that, you can't always do it. I need some heat in the winter these days, due to health conditions. I worry about my mother in law who, at 80, usually refuses to run her AC in the summer. You do need to be careful of your health. You also need to be sensitive to the fact that architects build for the prevailing culture. Where I live, they work very hard to deal with this kind of thing. Where you live, they will probably optimise for something else.

Like I said, it's a very cultural thing -- and that's the beauty of the world. There are different cultures and values, each with their own charms. It's totally fair to say that you like the way you live now (and more power to you!) But it's not impossible (nor bad) to live differently.

Re: Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwide temps

#297

Post by lfam »

DrScump wrote: post #189
lfam wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Early Florida homes (19th and early 20th century) were built by people who understood passive cooling techniques. But, the invention of AC and the development of super-strong residential building codes in response to destructive hurricanes has steered the last ~70 years of home construction towards sealed concrete boxes with air conditioning infrastructure built in. Many of the classic passive cooling techniques of t…

the development of super-strong residential building codes in response to destructive hurricanes plus the fact that all construction is much better insulated than the pre-war installed base.

True. It's the same thing in some cases. For example, you can no longer leave openings between the walls and roof, which used to let hot air out the top of your house. Talk about poorly insulated!

Re: Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwide temps

#298

Post by cuddlybacon »

err4nt wrote: post #243
cannonpr wrote: post #107

I hate to say it but AC always felt like thoughtless engineering and consumerism, especially the electric varieties. It's ironic that in a sunny, energy rich environment, you spend extra energy on a heat pump. In a lot of environments some better architecture will take care of the problem via passive methods, additionally evaporative methods work pretty well in dry environments and polute considerably less ? Failing…

In Toronto (Canada! land of snow and the North Pole) we've been having 90% humidity at night. I have AC but it's barely making a difference. Opening a window would be insanity. I just flew out to Calgary and we have a nice hot day with 40% humidity and it feels great. If you've only ever lived in dry areas I can understand not being aware, but even with AC, in places with high humidity it's just disgusting in the hea…

I was going to say the same thing, but for Vancouver. :)

Re: Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwide temps

#299

Post by npsimons »

scottLobster wrote: post #294
npsimons wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you and the GP are on the same page, just coming from different angles. You say we need to change communities; how do you do that without first changing the culture? Why do people want to live in suburbs? I don't know how to do it, but if there is enough demand for more efficient lifestyles I believe the market will meet it.

Because most large cities (at least in America) are loud, cramped, polluted, with horrible traffic and hit-and-miss public transportation, the schools are usually worse, and if you want space for even minor luxuries like a small workshop for personal projects, home office, rec-room, or other standard features of a typical middle-class American house, you better be willing to pay through the nose for it. Paying throug…

> Here in the states IMO we'd do better by making suburban lifestyles more efficient.

That makes me sad, because when I envision suburbia, it involves all the NIMBYism (especially in the form of HOAs) you mentioned above, combined with distances that make using a bicycle for transportation unrealistic. I actually enjoy riding my bicycle to and from work (and the grocery store). I would dread a commute in a vehicle of even 30 minutes.

Re: Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwide temps

#300

Post by dragonwriter »

sjg007 wrote: post #275
dragonwriter wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The LA Basin is not a desert.

Technically it is.

Technically, it's still not; it's a dry-summer Mediterranean climate; in the Köppen system, it's a Csb, arid climates are B, Desert is BW with h/k/n in the third position depending on temperature.
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