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Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwide temps

nytimes.com

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Re: Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwide temps

#171

Post by jwr »

djsumdog wrote: post #119

So we curb emissions by building a bunch of new A/C units? Sorry, that's silly. CO2 is just one of many many forms of pollution. Think you're doing your part by purchasing a hybrid or electric vehicle? There are barrels of oil that go into those tiers, the plastics, not to mention all the pollution that goes into battery production. If your car is fuel efficient, the best thing you can do for the environment is drive…

The current situation is largely caused by artificially low prices of fossil fuels. We are borrowing from the future to fuel our consumption.

If we agreed to increase those prices by, say, 5 to 10 times and used the money to fund research towards removing carbon from the atmosphere, the world would become a much better place. Problem is, everybody is afraid of the shock this would cause and everybody thinks only about his little square of the woods.

Re: Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwide temps

#172

Post by contingencies »

Element_ wrote: post #116

Toronto has a deep lake water cooling system that pumps cold water from the bottom of Lake Ontario and circulates it around the downtown core. It is capable of cooling 100 high-rise buildings. I believe when it was constructed it was the largest system in North America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enwave

I'd never heard of these systems until reading this thread. I am frankly amazed that China isn't using them. Here in Shenzhen (literally "deep bay") alone I am certain this would save a lot of electricity.

Re: Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwide temps

#173

Post by hughw »

julianj wrote: post #169
hughw wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reducing the number of humans could be one approach. The idea causes rancorous response from religious people who believe God told us to be fruitful and multiply. To reduce births might require coercion, it's true, but it would not require killing people or making them suffer. I don't see how else we can continue to enjoy the benefits and power of technology while keeping the planet habitable and enjoyable.

Every time I see this suggested I am reminded of Idocracy. Only some people will choose not to reproduce. The genes of those who disagree with this idea will be the genes passed on to later generations. One could also assume that the opposing ideas regarding reproduction are also more likely to be passed on. I don't really see this as a viable voluntary solution. If not voluntary, how could a place do this without in…

Wealthy nations already seem to have topped out on population growth, and now grow only through immigration. It could be that when societies reach a certain level of development they naturally produce fewer than two children per family.

Re: Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwide temps

#174

Post by WalterBright »

thescriptkiddie wrote: post #154
jriot wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Berlin doesn't nearly get as hot as the United States. Try sitting inside a house in Mobile, AL in July without air conditioner and see how long you last. Using your water example, what about the deserts in the US that don't have a nearby water source to cool everything. Europe is much cooler in comparison to the US.

A large part of this could be mitigated by building with passive thermal efficiency in mind. Features like extra insulation on roofs and south facing walls, large thermal masses, strategic eaves that block sunlight in the summer but let it through in the winter, whole building energy recovery ventilation systems, green roofs, underground living spaces, etc.

Simply using a white coating on the roof can reduce the A/C bill by about 3%.

It's so simple, I do not know why this isn't part of the building code in hot places. People may not like it for their homes, but for commercial buildings with flat roofs, it's a no-brainer.

Re: Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwide temps

#175

Post by enimodas »

DannyBee wrote: post #93
rplst8 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The challenge for these is the cost. First, you either have to drill wells that are ~500 feet deep or lay coils of tubing under your yard (if you have one) below the frost line. Doing either is expensive, though the wells are much more so. The downside of the cheaper option (the coils under yard) is that earth shifts, and the coils will too. I've had two separate friends install these (usually 4-6 separate coils) onl…

Sure, it's cost, but that's solvable. 1. Drilling the wells is not actually that expensive depending where you are. For me, 3 300 ft wells, bored, piped, and grouted, was about 5k. 2. The units can be gotten for that price with install. You need to take into account the fact that they are significantly more efficient at both heating, and cooling, and hot water, over their lifetime. (also, their specs and submittal da…

Do you know if there are any effects on groundwater? Like polution, mixing of different layers?

Re: Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwide temps

#176

Post by toomuchtodo »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #141
toomuchtodo wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My bedroom in Tampa, FL reaches 90F at night without air conditioning. There is no way I could live without AC here.

That's because your house is designed with active cooling as a presumption. If your house was designed to utilize passive cooling effects (thermal mass, green roof, evaporative cooling, overhangs, shades, airflow compression, etc) your bedroom wouldn't get that hot.

> That's because your house is designed with active cooling as a presumption.

No, it isn't. I have an enormous oak tree that overhangs the southern roof. My windows have a very low level of solar radiation they allow through. The ambient air temp at night is almost 80F. The house is built of concrete block, and stores heat during the day, releasing it at night. We're routinely at 60-80% humidity.

Just waiting for some solar shingles to be available (hurry up Elon!). Don't much care how long I run the AC every day as long as I net out 0 with solar generation.

Re: Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwide temps

#177

Post by JeffDClark »

rplst8 wrote: post #46
clumsysmurf wrote: post #23

Trump's 2018 budget zeroes funding for Energy Star, which among other things, helps consumers pick the most efficient devices, save money in the long run. What other ways can consumers compare the efficiency of A/C units? I would think some standardized testing and labels would be required.

There are standardized efficiency measurements that all A/C manufacturers must conduct and publish in the US. You'll see terms like COP, EER, and SEER. Those allow you to compare pretty easily. Currently the minimum is a SEER of 13, but I've seen units as high as 22 advertised.

Its good the be aware that one component of higher efficiency in an AC/Heat Pump is thinner tubing. Thinner tubing is more prone to develop leaks and costly coil replacements and refrigerant refills.

This seems to be primarily an issue with copper coils. I was bitten by this with a brand new system that I had installed about 9 or 10 years ago. It was pretty tough to eat the labor costs of having a new coil installed (that was covered under warranty) as well as a complete refrigerant fill (at the time ~$900 for the full R410A fill) on a system that was less than one year old. Its been good since then though!

Re: Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwide temps

#178

Post by Berobero »

hughw wrote: post #143
djsumdog wrote: post #119

So we curb emissions by building a bunch of new A/C units? Sorry, that's silly. CO2 is just one of many many forms of pollution. Think you're doing your part by purchasing a hybrid or electric vehicle? There are barrels of oil that go into those tiers, the plastics, not to mention all the pollution that goes into battery production. If your car is fuel efficient, the best thing you can do for the environment is drive…

Reducing the number of humans could be one approach. The idea causes rancorous response from religious people who believe God told us to be fruitful and multiply. To reduce births might require coercion, it's true, but it would not require killing people or making them suffer. I don't see how else we can continue to enjoy the benefits and power of technology while keeping the planet habitable and enjoyable.

You realize the world's birth rate has already been on the decline for decades, correct? And in general, the bulk of this occurred not because of coercion, but because of economic development and the ensuing shifts in optimum family strategy.

Re: Improving air conditioner efficiency could reduce worldwide temps

#179

Post by julianj »

hughw wrote: post #173
julianj wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I see this suggested I am reminded of Idocracy. Only some people will choose not to reproduce. The genes of those who disagree with this idea will be the genes passed on to later generations. One could also assume that the opposing ideas regarding reproduction are also more likely to be passed on. I don't really see this as a viable voluntary solution. If not voluntary, how could a place do this without in…

Wealthy nations already seem to have topped out on population growth, and now grow only through immigration. It could be that when societies reach a certain level of development they naturally produce fewer than two children per family.

As other nations continue to grow and industrialize, the issue then doesn't really go away. It seems that the problem would just move around the globe until we hit critical mass. The only solutions I see to this issue are to be more efficient with the resources we do have and/or move to another planet and start the process over again. Since moving to another planet is not something we will likely be able to do with billions of people in the short term, conserving resources and reducing consumption seem to be a more reachable goal.
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