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Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

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Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#221

Post by austenallred »

phillc73 wrote: post #101
learc83 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's effectively how it works in the US as well for most people. Federal loans (90% of all loans) come with income based repayment plans that charge 10% of your disposable income and are cancelled after 20 years if you don't pay it off.

I did not know that. So why all the noise about how expensive tertiary education is in the US?

Because a. not everyone qualifies for that, and b. 10% of disposable income for 20 years for something that didn't work out is still a pretty awful deal

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#222

Post by austenallred »

s73ver wrote: post #214
Danihan wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please add a Java based web development option (ideally with JSF), I'd join in a heartbeat. The web dev is too javascript / front-end centric, and the CS (I'd assume) is too math-centric. Java / JSF / MyFaces is the best of both worlds, imo. No need to write most front-end javascript, 80% of dev time can be spent on business logic.

Aren't most bootcamp grads being hired for frontend roles?

Depends. We're not really a bootcamp, most of our grads are hired for full-stack roles

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#223

Post by arikr »

brooklyn_ashey wrote: post #82
arikr wrote: post #11

If Dev Bootcamp was unprofitable, are other bootcamps also unprofitable, or was Dev Bootcamp an exception?

Recently, I had the opportunity to do some number crunching on actual outcomes data for one of the tier 1 bootcamps. (all its years of operation to date) I discovered that some major changes needed to be made in their business model in order for them to be truly profitable. Their big innovative business idea seemed to be: we are gonna be the best at bootcamping. I don't get how that even passes as an innovative busin…

Oh dear.

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#224

Post by dexterdog »

morgante wrote: post #89
brooklyn_ashey wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, money helps in so many ways. it sure does help you get in. It starts helping you when you are an infant. It helps the whole way. I know this because I worked in the tutoring idustry that helps people get in in exchange for money.

It helps, but it's certainly not the dominant effect. I don't know anyone who went to an elite university without significant baseline intelligence. I've seen so many students who still didn't do that well even after extensive, expensive tutoring. For example, SAT coaching only increases scores by around 50 points. [0] [0] https://www.jefftk.com/p/sat-coaching-what-effect-size

It is the dominant factor if it is enough money. I'm not talking about a meeting 1 million dollar 'donation'

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#225

Post by tannhauser23 »

smt88 wrote: post #177
panorama wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a fan of this line of thinking. Not every bootcamp graduate is the same. There may be less variance between them from a purely technical standpoint but their backgrounds are far more diverse than what you'd get out college. In other words, I don't think it's fair to say "there's an over-abundance of graduates from XYZ university. It's hard to choose among them." Regardless, stereotyping job candidates based o…

I actually don't hire junior/entry-level devs, but I do get flooded with their resumes even though I'm very explicit that I'm looking for experienced devs. If I were considering entry-level hires, I wouldn't hire bootcamp grads if their only experience were at the bootcamp. If someone has been coding for less than 4 months, I'm going to spend most of my time teaching them how to code. That kind of employment provides…

How about a math major from a top ivy? Physics grad student? Consultant? Chem-E engineer? Founder of a successful startup? Product managers? We had all those and more at my bootcamp cohort.

Look, you do what you want with your hiring. But don't just make the blanket claim that bootcamp grads aren't competent. People in my cohort were contributing right away. Looking at people few years above me, they're launching successful open source projects, becoming team leaders, giving talks at conferences, etc. If you're insulted by their success, maybe that's on you.

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#226

Post by eriktrautman »

Unbeliever69 wrote: post #142
BreakoutList wrote: post #42

For anyone seeking alternatives, $0 up-front cost software engineering bootcamps that I'm aware of: Learner’s Guild https://www.fastcoexist.com/3068200/when-this-entrepreneurs-... 42 (completely free) https://www.42.us.org/ Holberton School https://www.holbertonschool.com/ Lambda Academy https://lambdaschool.com/computer-science

Would Viking Code School also make this list?

Founder of Viking here: Yes, we're the original online school to offer deferred tuition (have for almost 3 years). Basically, we are 100% online and offer an Immersive 12-week bootcamp that's very challenging to get into but comes with a deferred tuition option where you don't pay until you get a job (you even get your deposit back if you don't).

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#227

Post by magic_beans »

chrisseaton wrote: post #119
jnmandal wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just want to point out that the founders ~peaced~ left 3 years ago. Kaplan has been running the program over the past few years.

> the founders peaced 3 years ago What does this mean?

"Peaced" (to peace) is a colloquialism which means "to leave" or "to abandon". In this case, it indicates the founders left the company.

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#228

Post by magic_beans »

jbenn wrote: post #147

Attending Dev Bootcamp in March 2013 is the best decision I've ever made, it totally altered the trajectory of my career and I'm happier and more fulfilled as a result. I'm not sure I would have been able to make the switch from consulting to software engineering without DBC. That being said, I'm extremely lucky to have enrolled during the narrow window I did. The entire bootcamp industry is suffering, not just DBC.…

I'm already web developer, but I want to move into Software Engineering. I wish there was a bootcamp out there that would train people who already work with JS and coding, but are not as strong in CS. Bootcamp L2, for example.

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#229

Post by smt88 »

tannhauser23 wrote: post #225
smt88 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually don't hire junior/entry-level devs, but I do get flooded with their resumes even though I'm very explicit that I'm looking for experienced devs. If I were considering entry-level hires, I wouldn't hire bootcamp grads if their only experience were at the bootcamp. If someone has been coding for less than 4 months, I'm going to spend most of my time teaching them how to code. That kind of employment provides…

How about a math major from a top ivy? Physics grad student? Consultant? Chem-E engineer? Founder of a successful startup? Product managers? We had all those and more at my bootcamp cohort. Look, you do what you want with your hiring. But don't just make the blanket claim that bootcamp grads aren't competent. People in my cohort were contributing right away. Looking at people few years above me, they're launching suc…

> Physics grad student? Consultant? Chem-E engineer? Founder of a successful startup? Product managers?

Those would be the same in that they don't have coding experience. Those people might be great hires, but they're not going to be great coders after a few short months trying to learn HTML, CSS, JavaScript, and possibly a backend language.

I didn't say that they're stupid or anything. I mentioned that even a highly experienced coder wouldn't be competent with a new stack in that amount of time.

> People in my cohort were contributing right away.

Contributions aren't the same as good contributions. Bad contributions are much worse and more expensive than no contribution at all.

> launching successful open source projects, becoming team leaders, giving talks at conferences, etc.

Again, none of these things indicate competence necessarily, and they certainly don't indicate that someone is a great hire. Coding is not just knowing facts and writing code. It's having the experience to know how to structure things, what tradeoffs to make, etc.

> If you're insulted by their success, maybe that's on you.

I'm not insulted by their success, but I am concerned that bootcamps are taking lots of money from people and not delivering what they say they're delivering.

Edit: If you look at other comments in this thread, I think many bootcamp grads agree.

There's also going to be some survivorship bias here: you succeeded due to your bootcamp, but does that mean it works for everyone? Would you have been able to do it on your own? Are you smarter than the average person who would be interested in a bootcamp?

Re: Dev Bootcamp Shutting Down

#230

Post by hrgradthrowaway »

lorenzq wrote: post #59
skylark wrote: post #21

I find bootcamps to be an interesting industry. The general perception is that they're learning institutions, but that couldn't be further from the truth. In reality, bootcamps are technical recruitment agencies. Companies are realizing that smart, motivated people with no CS degree can still oftentimes excel in the majority of positions (primarily app development.) The problem is finding those people. Bootcamps have…

This is definitely the case. I got accepted to both HR and Dev Bootcamp. I chose HR because it had the better reputation and had released outcomes statistics. HR had tougher requirements to get in, you had to understand more programming than a freshman or sophomore college student. Dev Bootcamp accepted me with a logic puzzle and basic if statements and for loops. There was no competition. HR's recent purchase of Mak…

Fellow HR grad here.

There was a point in time where completely unqualified students memorized and gamed the admissions process. Someone who did the remote interview copy and pasted the answers around the internet.

This led to a very large amount of students that were just not prepared for the program in any way, and it also coincided with the window in time that HR decided that they weren't going to remove any students for performance issues.

It was a fucking mess. I know people who mock interviewed students from those cohorts and they decided to completely disassociate with the school because of the experience.

I know people who technically interviewed them at their companies and they blacklisted Hack Reactor after too many of those rotten apples couldn't write a simple for loop. Some of these interviewers were Hack Reactor grads themselves.

I know someone who hired one of the people from those cohorts and had to fire them for performance after trying to give them half a year and excessive mentorship to improve.

It's a shame that shit like this has happened, because in my eyes it's irreparably tarnished the Hack Reactor name. I've given away my hoodie/tshirt to Goodwill because it just doesn't mean anything special to me anymore.

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