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Lifesaving advice from a black woman held at gunpoint by police

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Re: Lifesaving advice from a black woman held at gunpoint by police

#91

Post by gozur88 »

extra88 wrote: post #90
gozur88 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Commit, yes. For serious crimes like murder and A & B there's a victim. The causes are irrelevant from the standpoint of police officers. Cops have to deal with the situation in which they find themselves.

That's assuming there's an officer involved at all. I also didn't have a specific definition of "serious crimes" in mind, whether it would only include violent crimes or also non-violent ones like burglary or fraud (of significant value).

By "serious" I meant violent. The statistics line up for non-violent crimes, too, but cops don't get amped up when they arrest shoplifters, and I thought I would preempt the whole "but cops don't arrest white people for drugs" line of argument.

Re: Lifesaving advice from a black woman held at gunpoint by police

#92

Post by extra88 »

gozur88 wrote: post #91
extra88 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's assuming there's an officer involved at all. I also didn't have a specific definition of "serious crimes" in mind, whether it would only include violent crimes or also non-violent ones like burglary or fraud (of significant value).

By "serious" I meant violent. The statistics line up for non-violent crimes, too, but cops don't get amped up when they arrest shoplifters, and I thought I would preempt the whole "but cops don't arrest white people for drugs" line of argument.

Okay. I return to my earlier point, "black people commit more serious crimes" suggests there's a genetic or cultural explanation while economic status is likely more relevant; i.e. poor people commit more serious crimes.

Re: Lifesaving advice from a black woman held at gunpoint by police

#93

Post by gozur88 »

extra88 wrote: post #92
gozur88 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By "serious" I meant violent. The statistics line up for non-violent crimes, too, but cops don't get amped up when they arrest shoplifters, and I thought I would preempt the whole "but cops don't arrest white people for drugs" line of argument.

Okay. I return to my earlier point, "black people commit more serious crimes" suggests there's a genetic or cultural explanation while economic status is likely more relevant; i.e. poor people commit more serious crimes.

>I return to my earlier point, "black people commit more serious crimes" suggests there's a genetic or cultural explanation...

Does it? Not that I can see, particularly in response to the assertion black people are shot disproportionately by police.

Re: Lifesaving advice from a black woman held at gunpoint by police

#94

Post by weberc2 »

extra88 wrote: post #92
gozur88 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By "serious" I meant violent. The statistics line up for non-violent crimes, too, but cops don't get amped up when they arrest shoplifters, and I thought I would preempt the whole "but cops don't arrest white people for drugs" line of argument.

Okay. I return to my earlier point, "black people commit more serious crimes" suggests there's a genetic or cultural explanation while economic status is likely more relevant; i.e. poor people commit more serious crimes.

I don't understand the relationships between SES, culture, and crime, but I'm baffled that we pretend that veneration of gang life in inner city communities can't possibly factor into the equation even in a small way. To head off the stupid "white people listen to rap too!" false equivalence, crime worship can't be reduced to music selection, it's (by definition of "worship") a way of life. I guess I don't think we should rule out a cultural cause; it's not like we need to say "every black person worships criminals" or "no white people worship criminals"--if culture plays a role, I hope we can be mature enough to recognize that it's not a binary proposition, and can engage it earnestly and compassionately.

Re: Lifesaving advice from a black woman held at gunpoint by police

#95

Post by mercer »

weberc2 wrote: post #83
Hnrobert42 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think it unlikely that there is a systemic bias? Bearing in mind that systemic bias isn't usually the result of an overt plan or even hidden conspiracy but instead the simple average of the bias of all the parts of the system.

Something like that. I guess I don't think bias is as responsible or pervasive as we're lead to believe. Frequently when we look at a disparity, I find myself thinking "Why didn't they check if X, Y, or Z were responsible instead of bias?". One example is the gender wage gap; we now know that women make less than men because they elect into different careers, because they have different priorities. Different groups h…

I sort of see what you're getting at, but considering there's been a clear systemic bias against women and black people in our very recent past, and considering that it took a lot of effort (even a civil war, sort of, in the case of black people) to reduce these biases, I find it entirely reasonable to assume that they're still there, to a degree, and that we'll have to expend quite a bit of effort to reduce them further.

Re: Lifesaving advice from a black woman held at gunpoint by police

#96

Post by mercer »

sturgeongeneral wrote: post #28
op00to wrote: post #5

How is property worth pointing a gun at someone over? It's a car. Cars can be replaced.

It may be just a car to you, but I have a valuable sports car, and if I caught someone attempting to steal it I wouldn't hesitate to point a gun. Not for a moment. Would the intent be to kill? Of course not. It'd be to deter. Edit for the downvotes: it's not just a car to me, and it's not just about the monetary value. It has sentimental value and I wouldn't be able to replace it easily. I don't see what's so controv…

I guess many people just don't understand how any possession can justify the murder of another human. I'm one of those people. I have a wide variety of friends with ideas that I personally find reprehensible or that I disagree with strongly, but I have to admit that this is something I find very difficult to wrap my head around, much as I try.

Downvoting you for it isn't my style, but I can understand why others would.

Re: Lifesaving advice from a black woman held at gunpoint by police

#97

Post by mindslight »

weberc2 wrote: post #67
mindslight wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it particularly matter? Even if the majority of the panic is due to the media fanning the flames of racism for profit (and I think it is), it still effects the victim's state of mind. It doesn't matter if the victim's narrative was that she was likely to get shot because she is black, but yet the reality is that cops are equal opportunity murderers. Either way, the victim is ultimately panicked because they're b…

I was very clear that the story doesn't depend on this. Why are you confused?

I'm not confused and it seems we're close to being in violent agreement. But I'm pointing out that where one puts the emphasis is important.

If OP has fallen into the narrative that she is especially at risk being black [0], then there is a fine line between trying to extract her from that possibly nonconstructive narrative and shouting down her entire story. This is the general problem with the identity politics tarpit - if one objects too hard at a certain collectivist narrative (in this case, racism), then they are easily pigeonholed into being the "other" in that narrative, fueling the unproductive fire.

[0] Which given the location, is likely true regardless of the overriding distribution.

Re: Lifesaving advice from a black woman held at gunpoint by police

#98

Post by loco5niner »

zzalpha wrote: post #51
weberc2 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Police are necessarily involved in more risky encounters than laypeople. They have manyfold the opportunities to make a mistake than laypeople. Training offsets some of that risk, but not all of it.

No. Police are necessarily involved in more risky encounters than laypeople. They have manyfold the opportunities to make a mistake than laypeople. That's illogical. There are myriad professions where trust is delegated to the person in that profession, and consequences to go with it. A doctor doesn't get a free pass if they kill someone due to incompetence when performing a surgery just because they do it more often…

> A doctor doesn't get a free pass if they kill someone due to incompetence when performing a surgery just because they do it more often.

I very much doubt this is true. There is a risk factor built into going into surgery and an understanding that "complications happen" and people are are negatively affected. If we put surgeons in jail for making mistakes due to incompetence, we would have zero surgeons.

I'm very curious what your definition of competence is in both these scenarios...

Re: Lifesaving advice from a black woman held at gunpoint by police

#99

Post by weberc2 »

mercer wrote: post #95
weberc2 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something like that. I guess I don't think bias is as responsible or pervasive as we're lead to believe. Frequently when we look at a disparity, I find myself thinking "Why didn't they check if X, Y, or Z were responsible instead of bias?". One example is the gender wage gap; we now know that women make less than men because they elect into different careers, because they have different priorities. Different groups h…

I sort of see what you're getting at, but considering there's been a clear systemic bias against women and black people in our very recent past, and considering that it took a lot of effort (even a civil war, sort of, in the case of black people) to reduce these biases, I find it entirely reasonable to assume that they're still there, to a degree, and that we'll have to expend quite a bit of effort to reduce them fur…

Those were conscious biases though. Most people in our society try very hard to avoid even unconscious bias, often by being consciously biased against minority groups (this might range from small acts of kindness toward a minority group to nonprofits that serve minority groups to corporate inclusivity policies to government programs and affirmative action policies). Given all that, I have a hard time believing bias plays a large role in explaining disparities.

Re: Lifesaving advice from a black woman held at gunpoint by police

#100

Post by weberc2 »

mindslight wrote: post #97
weberc2 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was very clear that the story doesn't depend on this. Why are you confused?

I'm not confused and it seems we're close to being in violent agreement. But I'm pointing out that where one puts the emphasis is important. If OP has fallen into the narrative that she is especially at risk being black [0], then there is a fine line between trying to extract her from that possibly nonconstructive narrative and shouting down her entire story. This is the general problem with the identity politics tar…

Good point, well said, and I apologize for my misunderstanding.
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