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The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem

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Re: The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem

#151

Post by icebraining »

avar wrote: post #124
ryanbrunner wrote: post #95

I find a lot of sites feel like they're overtuning their recommendation engines, to the detriment of using the site. YouTube is particularly bad for this - given the years of history and somewhat regular viewing of the site, I feel like it should have a relatively good idea of what I'm interested in. Instead, the YouTube homepage seems myopically focused on the last 5-10 videos I watched.

This is because they're not trying to give you stuff you'd generally like given your entire history. The recommendation feature powers the part of YouTube that auto-plays the upcoming video. So e.g. if I go and view Russian dashcam videos they're going to automatically play more of them, even though I've shown no prior interest in that topic. Having two systems for recommendations would introduce a lot of UI complexi…

Having two systems for recommendations would introduce a lot of UI complexity,

Do you mean, in terms of implementation or for the user? Because as the later, I think the two are already conceptually different (homepage vs next video), so I don't see how just feeding it different videos would make it more complex.

Re: The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem

#152

Post by Semaphor »

kerbalspacepro wrote: post #138
Semaphor wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if it is because of weird tastes or something else. But for sites like Steam, YT, Netflix I always wish for more tuning parameters because their recommendations are all horrible. On Netflix, for example, I get recommended stuff that's similar to other things I didn't like. Amazon is often the best of them for books because their engine seems to only really value the last few things I looked at / bought a…

Regarding Amazon: "Oh, you bought a wallet? Here are twenty wallets of the exact same type but with slightly different colors that you might want to buy, too"

For books this works pretty well for me as I tend to read genres in bursts. If I just read a scifi books, I'll read a bunch more before going back to fantasy ;)

Re: The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem

#153

Post by scythe »

swenn wrote: post #148
crowbahr wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Netflix, I think, has killed their own recommendation algorithm when they removed stars and made it boolean. I don't know if those buttons even do anything anymore because I think they're just matching based off demographic and who they're trying to market to now. It's recommending shows that I never would watch in a million years and giving them high matches despite me disliking most similar shows just because I'm a…

Interesting experience, I recently read an article that gave me the impression that they rather improved the system. Excerpt from https://www.appcues.com/blog/rating-system-ux-star-thumbs/ "In addition to the new rating system, Netflix has new match percentages (up to 100%) to more accurately predict how much users will like something. ... The new rating system received 200% more ratings in A/B tests, according to Ne…

>When it comes to rating movies and shows, stars reflect the preferences that people want to have, rather than how people actually behave. Todd gave the example of users giving 5 stars to a documentary but just 3 stars to an Adam Sandler movie that they watched over and over again. “What you do versus what you say you like are different things,” said Todd."

There's a reasonable objection to this behavioral definition of "like", which is that it doesn't actually make people's lives better, it just fills them with more compulsive behavior. It's not necessarily "irrational" to wish you were more patient, or to want to ask Netflix to show you useful things rather than useless fluff. That you occasionally betray your stated goals does not mean you should be denied the right of self-definition.

In other words, what people say they like is more important, to me at least. See eg "Thinking Fast and Slow" by Kahneman.

Re: The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem

#154

Post by emodendroket »

aeturnum wrote: post #126
emodendroket wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like what he is claiming is that his mom instantly clicks like on everything and so the post gets gated before his other friends ever have the opportunity to indicate whether they like it.

A lot of this seems like it comes down to how that initial pool of users is treated. If they show it to 5 users and his mom is the only one (ever) that likes it, then it makes sense to show that content to people common to him and his mom. If the other users like it, they should distribute it more widely and maybe include users from other non-overlapping networks. That all seems good. If mom likes 90% of the posts, t…

Well, like I said to the other guy, I don't know how you account for the fact that he gets engagement from other people if he hides the posts from his mom then.

Re: The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem

#155

Post by asah »

ryanbrunner wrote: post #95

I find a lot of sites feel like they're overtuning their recommendation engines, to the detriment of using the site. YouTube is particularly bad for this - given the years of history and somewhat regular viewing of the site, I feel like it should have a relatively good idea of what I'm interested in. Instead, the YouTube homepage seems myopically focused on the last 5-10 videos I watched.

Sounds like an opportunity: deeper recommendations

Re: The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem

#156

Post by fitzroy »

crowbahr wrote: post #128
Semaphor wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if it is because of weird tastes or something else. But for sites like Steam, YT, Netflix I always wish for more tuning parameters because their recommendations are all horrible. On Netflix, for example, I get recommended stuff that's similar to other things I didn't like. Amazon is often the best of them for books because their engine seems to only really value the last few things I looked at / bought a…

Netflix, I think, has killed their own recommendation algorithm when they removed stars and made it boolean. I don't know if those buttons even do anything anymore because I think they're just matching based off demographic and who they're trying to market to now. It's recommending shows that I never would watch in a million years and giving them high matches despite me disliking most similar shows just because I'm a…

I have to wonder if Netflix did this because a lot of their original or exclusive content seems to debut to mediocre star ratings. When the new system says "x% match" I assume that value is derived more from genre match or search relevance than whether I'll actually like it or not.

Re: The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem

#157

Post by Fomite »

anigbrowl wrote: post #112
ryanbrunner wrote: post #95

I find a lot of sites feel like they're overtuning their recommendation engines, to the detriment of using the site. YouTube is particularly bad for this - given the years of history and somewhat regular viewing of the site, I feel like it should have a relatively good idea of what I'm interested in. Instead, the YouTube homepage seems myopically focused on the last 5-10 videos I watched.

YouTube is weird. I made the mistake of watching a flat earth video last year in order to get a handle on that growing weirdo fad. Well it turns out that flat earthers are really avid content consumers (presumably because of the enormous cognitive reinforcement requirements to maintain such a belief) and YouTube really wanted to help me with that. It took a couple of months for it to stop offering me a portal to a be…

I similarly had that happen with some GamerGate stuff. Watched a video just to see if I could wrap my head around it, went "Nope!" and went on with my life, and the next thing I knew YouTube was desperately trying to send me down the alt-right rabbit hole.

Re: The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem

#158

Post by differonzi »

jon_richards wrote: post #149
wlesieutre wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I told this story in the recent Amazon recommendations discussion, but I bought a pair of speaker stands from them and before it was even delivered they sent me an email saying "HEY BASED ON YOUR BROWSING HISTORY MAYBE YOU'D LIKE THESE OTHER 10 SPEAKER STANDS!"

I've heard the argument that this prevents buyer's remorse. Not sure if it has any merit.

What are the (general) financial consequences of buyer's remorse?

Re: The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem

#159

Post by badwolf »

kerbalspacepro wrote: post #138
Semaphor wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if it is because of weird tastes or something else. But for sites like Steam, YT, Netflix I always wish for more tuning parameters because their recommendations are all horrible. On Netflix, for example, I get recommended stuff that's similar to other things I didn't like. Amazon is often the best of them for books because their engine seems to only really value the last few things I looked at / bought a…

Regarding Amazon: "Oh, you bought a wallet? Here are twenty wallets of the exact same type but with slightly different colors that you might want to buy, too"

Buy a Dyson vacuum cleaner on Amazon... For the next several weeks Amazon thinks I've taken up the popular hobby of collecting vacuum cleaners

Re: The Facebook Algorithm Mom Problem

#160

Post by quadrangle »

icebraining wrote: post #150
rhizome wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YouTube would rather you fall into a trance of continuing your recent viewing habits rather than providing a personalized library. It just makes better business sense.

Why does it make better business sense?

Because they aren't trying to help you enjoy videos over the long-term, they're trying to keep you from going over to Facebook where their addictive algorithm will take over and reduce your likelihood of returning to YouTube!

It's a classic race-to-the-bottom. If YouTube lets Facebook keep you addicted, you won't get to the long-term.

http://timewellspent.io/ is good for perspective

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