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Saying Sorry When Things Go Wrong [pdf]

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Re: Saying Sorry When Things Go Wrong [pdf]

#41

Post by losteverything »

alex_young wrote: post #32
jessriedel wrote: post #11

1. It says that an apology is not of itself an admission of guilt. But it doesn't say that an apology can't be used as one piece of evidence of negligence/wrong-doing. 2. This document conflates negligent/avoidable mistakes with situations where "there has been an unintended or unexpected event" and "includes recognised complications referred to in the consent process". In the latter cases, "I'm sorry" is an expressi…

Is saying "I'm sorry" an admission of guilt somehow? Genuinely interested.

Yes. It does.

Or it is insincere.

Saying "im sorry" or never saying "im sorry" has expansive meanings and "sides"-

--- "My favorite mug is broken."

"Im sorry."

"Did you break it?"

"No."

"Then why apologize??!!!"

("I feel bad" is a better response)

I was reared in an "im sorry" said often environment. It was used to placate and move past someone's issue. A phrase that was never meant but effective.

I work now with a man that will always say (after hearing someone say im sorry), "Never say you're sorry. Its a sign of weakness." where i say im sorry to make others feel comfortable and to relate to complainers.

A sibling had and will never say she is sorry. It is like a commandment. Thou shall not ever apologize.

I do an im sorry test when i meet someone. Do they ever say that phrase?

There is no real simple answer "does it mean guilt" but my decades of experience say "Yes" more than "no"

Re: Saying Sorry When Things Go Wrong [pdf]

#43

Post by watwut »

ineedasername wrote: post #17

I know the context of the PDF is a little different, but towards making the sentiment more broadly applicable, I'd suggest that an ability to own up to a mistake of any sort is a very useful professional "skill". Lacking that skill, it can be much more difficult to correct a problem before it becomes an issue (You hesitate, because a change implies the pre-change situation was "wrong") Once there's an issue, it also…

I am not sure. I used to say "sorry" and "I don't know". People assumed I make more mistakes and know less then collegues who don't speek that way.

I am training myself not to say those things (not there yet, but getting better).

Re: Saying Sorry When Things Go Wrong [pdf]

#44

Post by NegatioN »

losteverything wrote: post #41
alex_young wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is saying "I'm sorry" an admission of guilt somehow? Genuinely interested.

Yes. It does. Or it is insincere. Saying "im sorry" or never saying "im sorry" has expansive meanings and "sides"- --- "My favorite mug is broken." "Im sorry." "Did you break it?" "No." "Then why apologize??!!!" ("I feel bad" is a better response) I was reared in an "im sorry" said often environment. It was used to placate and move past someone's issue. A phrase that was never meant but effective. I work now with a m…

This probably comes back to what part of the context is left unsaid. If someone's favorite mug is broken, you are trying to convey something like: "I'm sorry (to hear that)" But an apology obviously has the meaning of : "I'm sorry (for what I did that made this happen)"

Being explicit about it could help, but I agree my default inclination is also to assume it's an apology.

Re: Saying Sorry When Things Go Wrong [pdf]

#45

Post by Kenji »

sctb wrote: post #19
Kenji wrote: post #16

Why be sorry? It's an admission of guilt and weakness. Take a page out of Donald Trump's book - never be sorry for anything. You do what you do and the others can deal with it. That gets you the presidency in today's world, it seems. I don't even want to get political here but the US elections have shown me how you get ahead in life.

Do we really need another political flamewar here? I don't think we do.

As mentioned in the post, it wasn't about politics. Republican or democrat, it doesn't matter. It was about human psychology and how apologizing is a hinderance to getting ahead.

Re: Saying Sorry When Things Go Wrong [pdf]

#46

Post by barsonme »

NegatioN wrote: post #44
losteverything wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. It does. Or it is insincere. Saying "im sorry" or never saying "im sorry" has expansive meanings and "sides"- --- "My favorite mug is broken." "Im sorry." "Did you break it?" "No." "Then why apologize??!!!" ("I feel bad" is a better response) I was reared in an "im sorry" said often environment. It was used to placate and move past someone's issue. A phrase that was never meant but effective. I work now with a m…

This probably comes back to what part of the context is left unsaid. If someone's favorite mug is broken, you are trying to convey something like: "I'm sorry (to hear that)" But an apology obviously has the meaning of : "I'm sorry (for what I did that made this happen)" Being explicit about it could help, but I agree my default inclination is also to assume it's an apology.

More specifically, in addition to remorse for one's actions, 'sorry' indicates you're grieved over a situation in general. So, if somebody's favorite mug is broken and you say, "I'm sorry" you're indicating the state of their mug grieves you.

(Grieves might be a bit heavy of a word to use, so saddened works too—the concept is the same.)

Re: Saying Sorry When Things Go Wrong [pdf]

#47

Post by bshimmin » 

   Saying sorry is:
   always the right thing to do
   not an admission of liability
   acknowledges that something could have gone better
   the first step to learning from what happened and
   preventing it recurring
This is very, very wobbly advice if you're dealing with a difficult client. I have had a number of situations where my natural English politeness has led to my offering apologies for situations that are 50% or less my own fault, and clients have leapt on this and translated it into everything being my fault. I very much steer clear of using the words "I'm sorry" or "I apologise" now, and usually opt for fairly bland passive voice phrases like "I appreciate that there has been some degree of frustration", followed by a summary of what both parties can do to improve matters.

I also just flat-out disagree regarding liability, though I presume this must refer to a specific legal perspective in this particular context.

Re: Saying Sorry When Things Go Wrong [pdf]

#48

Post by taejo »

bshimmin wrote: post #47

Saying sorry is: always the right thing to do not an admission of liability acknowledges that something could have gone better the first step to learning from what happened and preventing it recurring This is very, very wobbly advice if you're dealing with a difficult client. I have had a number of situations where my natural English politeness has led to my offering apologies for situations that are 50% or less my o…

> I also just flat-out disagree regarding liability, though I presume this must refer to a specific legal perspective in this particular context.

The OP cites the Compensation Act 2006:

> 2 Apologies, offers of treatment or other redress

> An apology, an offer of treatment or other redress, shall not of itself amount to an admission of negligence or breach of statutory duty.

Re: Saying Sorry When Things Go Wrong [pdf]

#49

Post by beobab »

tkahnoski wrote: post #24
blacksmythe wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me the key work skill is a willingness to answer "I don't know". People that can't say that when they don't know the answer are inevitably pompous time-wasters.

Similarly "I need help" and "How can I help?" are powerful things.

I still have trouble with "I need help". I can work out what I need to do, but I have trouble doling out work in a way which means that it gets done to the specification I have got in my head, so I am not sure how to accept the offers of help.

I think I need help writing specifications for my fellow developers.

Re: Saying Sorry When Things Go Wrong [pdf]

#50

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

barsonme wrote: post #46
NegatioN wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This probably comes back to what part of the context is left unsaid. If someone's favorite mug is broken, you are trying to convey something like: "I'm sorry (to hear that)" But an apology obviously has the meaning of : "I'm sorry (for what I did that made this happen)" Being explicit about it could help, but I agree my default inclination is also to assume it's an apology.

More specifically, in addition to remorse for one's actions, 'sorry' indicates you're grieved over a situation in general. So, if somebody's favorite mug is broken and you say, "I'm sorry" you're indicating the state of their mug grieves you. (Grieves might be a bit heavy of a word to use, so saddened works too—the concept is the same.)

In the UK a common response on learning of a bereavement or some other major life setback is to say "I'm sorry" or "I'm so sorry."

Obviously this doesn't imply guilt.

If your most recent code breaks the company website, the correct response is probably "I'm on it - ETA of mins/hours."

You could argue that an apology is redundant, although a post-mortem may be useful.

It's a difficult cultural issue, because it depends how avoidable show-stopper problems are.

The law doesn't fully distinguish between negligence caused by personal error; negligence caused by stress, distraction, or overwork; trivial error which may be magnified because of circumstances or other contributory factors; basic incompetence of one individual; basic incompetence of one or more other individuals which ends up being the problem of someone who isn't directly responsible (e.g. a site crashes because of an ancient bug buried in ancient code); and a series of extremely unlikely but unfortunate events.

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