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Are You Ready to Consider That Capitalism Is the Real Problem?

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Re: Are You Ready to Consider That Capitalism Is the Real Problem?

#61

Post by LyndsySimon »

antisthenes wrote: post #37
LyndsySimon wrote: post #4

This article reads to me like a long list of problems caused by government and blamed on capitalism. I'm biased though - I'm an anarcho-capitalist, and I've spent orders of magnitude more time considering these sorts of questions than the vast majority of people who are not so politically involved.

Sorry, but sounds like something straight out of /r/iamverysmart Do you have any historic evidence that countries with smaller governments are wealthier & more efficient than countries where government spending is a large proportion of the GDP? (hint: it's all the western developed democracies)

> Sorry, but sounds like something straight out of /r/iamverysmart

Yeah, I was afraid it would come off that way and tried to soften it by qualifying my last statement. Apparently, it didn't work.

> Do you have any historic evidence that countries with smaller governments are wealthier & more efficient than countries where government spending is a large proportion of the GDP?

I didn't make that assertion. All I was trying to do is say that from my perspective most of the points raised in the article appear to be caused by government involvement, not by capitalism.

Re: Are You Ready to Consider That Capitalism Is the Real Problem?

#62

Post by mnm1 »

cmahler7 wrote: post #5

Socialists/Communists not satisfied with 200 million+ deaths, must want to hit an even 1 billion. Blows my mind people can even be calling for socialism while we have a real time implosion going on in Venezuela right now. It's ending like every other socialist regime in history, cannibalism, famine, riots, and murder. Meanwhile one of the United State's biggest problem is obesity due to being so prosperous. Actually…

Great. Let's confuse socialism with communism yet again. At least it invalidates your argument from the start.

Re: Are You Ready to Consider That Capitalism Is the Real Problem?

#63

Post by thescribe »

mnm1 wrote: post #62
cmahler7 wrote: post #5

Socialists/Communists not satisfied with 200 million+ deaths, must want to hit an even 1 billion. Blows my mind people can even be calling for socialism while we have a real time implosion going on in Venezuela right now. It's ending like every other socialist regime in history, cannibalism, famine, riots, and murder. Meanwhile one of the United State's biggest problem is obesity due to being so prosperous. Actually…

Great. Let's confuse socialism with communism yet again. At least it invalidates your argument from the start.

Socialism is government ownership of capitol. Communism is a hypothetical end state where everyone collectively controls the capitol.

In my mind they are fairly easy to confuse.

Re: Are You Ready to Consider That Capitalism Is the Real Problem?

#64

Post by mnm1 »

thescribe wrote: post #63
mnm1 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great. Let's confuse socialism with communism yet again. At least it invalidates your argument from the start.

Socialism is government ownership of capitol. Communism is a hypothetical end state where everyone collectively controls the capitol. In my mind they are fairly easy to confuse.

Sure, if that's your definition of communism. The only communism I've ever experienced or read about on our planet, however, is the opposite, where one or a few people control everything, not just capital, and subject everyone else to persecution. So really, it shouldn't be that hard not to confuse it with socialism if you look at the actual manifestation of the ideology instead of the bullshit that justifies it.

Re: Are You Ready to Consider That Capitalism Is the Real Problem?

#65

Post by uoaei »

pzone wrote: post #46
zzzcpan wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While socialism/communism were good excuses to concentrate enormous amount of power and dictate every aspect of people's lives, the ideas were never the problem. It's just those concentrating wealth want you to believe otherwise, so they can keep get wealthier and wealthier. It's not that hard to help the poor without a dictatorship, the system is already in place in every country in the world, just one small law and…

Oh of course. Next time when we implement socialism, nobody at all will be interested in concentrating power and abusing it for personal benefit. How silly of me to think that might happen for the hundred and first time after a hundred times in the past.

People will always do this.

The goal becomes to leave the power in a democratized space, as socialism dictates. When labor members own their fair shares of the companies that are interacting on the market, they will make decisions socially and profit proportionally. Exploitation in its current form will be greatly reduced. Naturally any economic system bears its own unique issues to contend with, but these can be addressed in time for what seems at this point to be a net improvement in inequality.

Re: Are You Ready to Consider That Capitalism Is the Real Problem?

#66

Post by grinnbearit »

smt88 wrote: post #10
cmahler7 wrote: post #5

Socialists/Communists not satisfied with 200 million+ deaths, must want to hit an even 1 billion. Blows my mind people can even be calling for socialism while we have a real time implosion going on in Venezuela right now. It's ending like every other socialist regime in history, cannibalism, famine, riots, and murder. Meanwhile one of the United State's biggest problem is obesity due to being so prosperous. Actually…

You mention Venezuela, but what about India? France, Sweden, Belgium, Canada, Finland, and Denmark are all arguably socialist -- certain much more so than the US. Any economic system fails when practiced by corrupt or incompetent governments. There are many failed capitalist states, too. Edit: if you want to talk about scaling, China and India are debatably doing well (or at least improving rapidly), and both countri…

I don't know about a lot of other countries but India's economic boom started after liberalisation[1] in the 90s, before that India was far poorer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalisation_in_Ind...

Re: Are You Ready to Consider That Capitalism Is the Real Problem?

#67

Post by random42_ »

I wonder how much of it is the system's fault and how much is human nature's fault. Regardless of the system, there is always a group that will want more, be it money and/or power. Many of the problems cited in this article wouldn't be a problem if not for pure self interest and lack of empathy for the society as a whole. The JP Morgan reaction to the attempt of raising wages is the perfect example for that.

Re: Are You Ready to Consider That Capitalism Is the Real Problem?

#68

Post by notspanishflu »

jandrese wrote: post #48
gremlinsinc wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try again. Socialism is where the government controls ALL means of production. They set how much toilet paper is produced daily, and they do it based on arbitrary means not supply and demand. Social Democracy -- is capitalism with some programs added in, heck Police, Fire, and Roads maintained by the state are SOCIAL DEMOCRACY programs -- maybe you should have to pay if you want the fire truck to come put out your fi…

You've setup a strawman to argue against. Few people think that extreme is a good idea. History has proven that it does not scale well and is considerably less efficient at allocating resources than capitalism. It's also highly prone to corruption because the power is concentrated at the top, which is ironically exactly the same problem that capitalism has, even though those communist systems were built to solve the…

>Few people think that extreme is a good idea

Unfortunately people has short memory. In the last elections here in Spain more people than ever voted far-left parties, including supporters of terrorist groups. Just the coalition between communists (Unidos Podemos) received more than 5 million votes.

Even convicted terrorists from ETA, and Terra Lliure won their seats.

Sadly, far-left and far-right populism is going up in Europe.

Re: Are You Ready to Consider That Capitalism Is the Real Problem?

#69

Post by mcbruiser3 »

HoppedUpMenace wrote: post #36
mcbruiser3 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, people are always motivated by self interest, even for what seems like altruistic actions the underlying motivation is that it makes them feel good about themselves.

I'm sure there's a name for this but a modern day label could be the "Facebook Syndrome", where seemingly endless goals of altruism is at its core, motivated by self interest and feeling good about oneself, to the detriment of the people you profess to be helping.

I think it's called virtue signaling. and yeah, it's rampant on social media.

Re: Are You Ready to Consider That Capitalism Is the Real Problem?

#70

Post by gremlinsinc »

jandrese wrote: post #48
gremlinsinc wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try again. Socialism is where the government controls ALL means of production. They set how much toilet paper is produced daily, and they do it based on arbitrary means not supply and demand. Social Democracy -- is capitalism with some programs added in, heck Police, Fire, and Roads maintained by the state are SOCIAL DEMOCRACY programs -- maybe you should have to pay if you want the fire truck to come put out your fi…

You've setup a strawman to argue against. Few people think that extreme is a good idea. History has proven that it does not scale well and is considerably less efficient at allocating resources than capitalism. It's also highly prone to corruption because the power is concentrated at the top, which is ironically exactly the same problem that capitalism has, even though those communist systems were built to solve the…

An option besides socialism though that looks interesting is the Venus Project, or Resource Based Economy -- where all goods and services are available to all people without the need for money, credits, barter or any other means.
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