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Apple and Google embody two alternative models of capitalism

theatlantic.com

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Re: Apple and Google embody two alternative models of capitalism

#21
post #5

When I read the title I thought about the difference that Apple is selling to users and Google to advertisers. These are two different ways of capitalisms, too.

Well, they really are two different business models, not really two different models of capitalism.

The title is a bit pompous, but the article does actually relate the policies of the two companies with a basic concept of capitalism (allocation of capital).

Re: Apple and Google embody two alternative models of capitalism

#22

It's worth mentioning on a post like this that there is no legal (or historical) basis for the idea that maximizing shareholder value is the primary concern of a corporation. See these two sources: https://hbr.org/2010/04/the-myth-of-shareholder-capitalism [pdf] http://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic...

I came here to mention this, but thank you for doing so already - and providing sources!

One thing I would suggest you may want to add for clarification: certain agents of corporations have fiduciary responsibilities to act in the best interest of the shareholder, which generally means to not lose money. So while "maximizing" shareholder value has no legal basis, increasing shareholder value year over year is a legal responsibility, although this is definitely a gray area.

Re: Apple and Google embody two alternative models of capitalism

#23

It's worth mentioning on a post like this that there is no legal (or historical) basis for the idea that maximizing shareholder value is the primary concern of a corporation. See these two sources: https://hbr.org/2010/04/the-myth-of-shareholder-capitalism [pdf] http://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic...

So what if there isn't? I see this trope thrown around a lot. I find it suspiciously vacuous: it seems like an attempt to dress up political opinions as "research."

It's as trite as saying "there is no historical basis for the idea that getting a higher salary is the primary concern of an employee." What would that add to a discussion about wages?

If you think corporations should do something differently, why not just say so, and say what?

Re: Apple and Google embody two alternative models of capitalism

#24
post #23

It's worth mentioning on a post like this that there is no legal (or historical) basis for the idea that maximizing shareholder value is the primary concern of a corporation. See these two sources: https://hbr.org/2010/04/the-myth-of-shareholder-capitalism [pdf] http://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic...

So what if there isn't? I see this trope thrown around a lot. I find it suspiciously vacuous: it seems like an attempt to dress up political opinions as "research." It's as trite as saying "there is no historical basis for the idea that getting a higher salary is the primary concern of an employee." What would that add to a discussion about wages? If you think corporations should do something differently, why not jus…

Depending on context, it can be important. Too often, corporate behavior is explained by saying that the “only responsibility” of a corporation is to “maximize shareholder value”. The words “only responsibility” are not descriptive, but prescriptive, meant to end debate about the morality of an action. In those contexts, it's useful to know that this is a fiction and a debating trick, not a description of law, natural or human.

Re: Apple and Google embody two alternative models of capitalism

#25
post #23

It's worth mentioning on a post like this that there is no legal (or historical) basis for the idea that maximizing shareholder value is the primary concern of a corporation. See these two sources: https://hbr.org/2010/04/the-myth-of-shareholder-capitalism [pdf] http://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic...

So what if there isn't? I see this trope thrown around a lot. I find it suspiciously vacuous: it seems like an attempt to dress up political opinions as "research." It's as trite as saying "there is no historical basis for the idea that getting a higher salary is the primary concern of an employee." What would that add to a discussion about wages? If you think corporations should do something differently, why not jus…

I mention it because the following sentence is just thrown casually in this article.

Having investors dominate, as Apple does, is a good way of handling one principal-agent problem: getting managers to do right by their owners.

See:

>Consider first Friedman’s erroneous belief that shareholders “own” corporations. Although laymen sometimes have difficulty understanding the point, corporations are legal entities that own themselves, just as human entities own themselves. What shareholders own are shares, a type of contract between the shareholder and the legal entity that gives shareholders limited legal rights. In this regard, shareholders stand on equal footing with the corporation’s bondholders, suppliers, and employees, all of whom also enter contracts with the firm that give them limited legal rights.14

From the previous pdf. Basically these false ideas about the relationship between shareholders and corporation have almost totally permeated modern business discussions. Correcting that misunderstanding may lead to a political discussion (you bring me there later in this comment) but it isn't political in itself.

>It's as trite as saying "there is no historical basis for the idea that getting a higher salary is the primary concern of an employee." What would that add to a discussion about wages?

I think it would if you also linked some interesting articles about labor movements and how we became disconnected from this history. I understand if you don't find the information interesting [ :'( ] but I did and thought it might add some context to the debate between the two management styles in the article.

>If you think corporations should do something differently, why not just say so, and say what?

I wasn't sure if my opinion was relevant and was truly just trying to correct an extremely pervasive false belief. However if you want to know, I'd like to see management compensation become more seperated from share value. In my mind a CEO compensation package would involve a base salary and then components that reward the CEO when share prices increase relative to an industry benchmark, when median wage in the firm increases or when employees report more satisfaction or maybe the firms labor retention rate increases? Something that incorporates workers although I'd have to think harder about exactly what metric. And also maybe a component that incorporates some sort of consumer rating. Corporations have responsibilities to their workers, their customers and their shareholders, the idea that the individuals in a company get rewarded for helping only one of those groups in a big problem with our system today (imo).

Re: Apple and Google embody two alternative models of capitalism

#26

I don't respect any article about the future of economy that does not take into consideration climate change, sustainability and the anthropocene. Capitalism will have to change dramatically soon, our world is collapsing. But sure. let's talk about apple vs google. I am not a fan of capitalism, but I'm not even criticizing capitalism per se, only that all big companies nowadays are existing in a world and way of prod…

got a -1 from a trump voter.

Re: Apple and Google embody two alternative models of capitalism

#27

There is so much wrong with this article I hardly know where to begin. First, it presumes a 19th-century separation of "capital" and "labor" where "capital" is a bunch of greedy pigs trying their damndest to exploit labor, with little crossover between the two groups. The modern reality is way more complicated. Almost every member of "labor" has some form of pension, 401(k), IRA, or personal stock holding, and even i…

What percent of Americans have zero dollars in stocks and bonds?

What percent of asset markets are owned by the 1%?

Re: Apple and Google embody two alternative models of capitalism

#28

There is so much wrong with this article I hardly know where to begin. First, it presumes a 19th-century separation of "capital" and "labor" where "capital" is a bunch of greedy pigs trying their damndest to exploit labor, with little crossover between the two groups. The modern reality is way more complicated. Almost every member of "labor" has some form of pension, 401(k), IRA, or personal stock holding, and even i…

Uh-uh. This is an excellent article because it accomplishes 100% of what it set out to do:

Put the words "Apple" "vs." and "Google" in the headline to generate some pretty good clicks.

The rest of the words are just to fill the rectangle the headline sits over. They just need to be formed in a way that doesn't distract from the main purpose.

Re: Apple and Google embody two alternative models of capitalism

#29

There is so much wrong with this article I hardly know where to begin. First, it presumes a 19th-century separation of "capital" and "labor" where "capital" is a bunch of greedy pigs trying their damndest to exploit labor, with little crossover between the two groups. The modern reality is way more complicated. Almost every member of "labor" has some form of pension, 401(k), IRA, or personal stock holding, and even i…

80% of the value of stocks are held by the top 10%. The fact that 401ks which were initially retirement plans for executives have permeated labor is an indictment of the system. Capital owners have removed defined benefit plans forcing labor to jump into the same boat. But make no mistake about who really benefits from that convergence and who forced it in the first place.

Re: Apple and Google embody two alternative models of capitalism

#30

There is so much wrong with this article I hardly know where to begin. First, it presumes a 19th-century separation of "capital" and "labor" where "capital" is a bunch of greedy pigs trying their damndest to exploit labor, with little crossover between the two groups. The modern reality is way more complicated. Almost every member of "labor" has some form of pension, 401(k), IRA, or personal stock holding, and even i…

> Almost every member of "labor" has some form of pension, 401(k), IRA, or personal stock holding

Citation needed. I believe "almost every" is pure hyperbole.

A quick search found a poll indicating 52% of Americans own stock.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/190883/half-americans-own-stocks-...

If you have better information, I'd like to see it, please.

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