Live data from Hacker News

Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learning how to think

nwaonline.com

71–80 of 343 posts

Re: Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learning how to think

#71
post #34

I wonder if a large part of our math problem is our legacy fixation on Greek letters. Would math be more approachable to English speakers if we just used English? I like to think about math as language, rather than thought or logic or formulas or numbers. The Greek letters are part of that language, and part of why learning math is learning a completely foreign language, even though so many people who say they can't…

If the use of greek letters is a major hurdle to learning maths, I'm guessing that the learner has misunderstood something fundamental about symbols in maths. It shouldn't make any significant difference if the symbols are Latin, Greek or even made up by the lecturer (as long as they are sane).

The learner presumably doesn't know maths or what the symbols in maths are yet, so perhaps they haven't understood yet, rather than they misunderstood something.

Symbols are in fact intimidating to some people. Not after you learn them, but before.

Your argument is abstract and theoretical. It doesn't make any difference to a computer which symbols you use, because it's a lookup table. But to a human, learning new characters takes effort. That effort could be used to learn the concepts, but instead we take time learning new symbols.

Try typing your reply in trinary. It shouldn't make any difference if the symbols are ascii or trinary. You should be able to type just as fast.

Re: Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learning how to think

#72
This is something I've been pondering quite a bit recently. It is my firm belief that mathematical skill and general numeracy are actually a small subset of abstract thought. Am I wrong in thinking that school math is the closest to deliberate training in abstract reasoning that one would find in public education?

Abstract reasoning, intuition, and creativity, to me, represent the underpinnings of software engineering, and really, most engineering and science, but are taught more by osmosis along side the unintuitive often boring mechanics of subjects. The difference between a good engineer of any sort and one that 'just knows the formulas' is the ability to fluently manipulate and reason with symbols and effects that don't necessarily have any relation or simple metaphor in the tangible world. And taking it further, creativity and intuition beyond dull calculation are the crucial art behind choosing the right hypothesis to investigate. Essentially, learning to 'see' in this non-spacial space of relations. When I'm doing system engineering work, I don't think in terms of X Gb/s throughput and Y FLOPS... (until later at least) but in my mind I have a model of the information and data structures clicking and buzzing, like watching the gears of a clock, and I sort of visualize working with this, playing with changes. It wouldn't surprise me of most knowledge workers arrive have similar mental models of their own. But what I have observed is that people who have trouble with mathematics or coding aren't primed at all to 'see' abstractions in their minds eye. This skill takes years to cultivate, but, it seems that its cultivation is left entirely to chance by orthodox STEM education.

I was just thinking that this sort of thing could be approached a lot more deliberately and could yield very broad positive results in STEM teaching.

Re: Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learning how to think

#73
post #67

My problem with Math education was always that speed was an enormous factor in testing. You can methodically go through each question aiming for 100% accuracy and not finish the test paper, while other students can comfortably breeze through all the questions and get 80% accuracy but ultimately score higher on the test. This kind of penalizing for a lack of speed can lead to younger kids who are maximizing for grades…

You couldn't finish your tests in high school, but you're good at math? Have you ever been evaluated for test anxiety?

https://www.adaa.org/living-with-anxiety/children/test-anxie...

There's no shame in it (although high schoolers can be assholes), and it can help your school accommodate your needs eg extra time to take your exams.

Re: Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learning how to think

#74
I teach math at a community college. I've tried many times to teach my courses in such a way that understanding the concepts and thinking were the goals. Perhaps I'm jaded by the failures I encountered but students do not want to think. They want to see a set of problem types that need to be mimicked.

In our lowest level course we teach beginning algebra. Almost everyone has an intuition that 2x + 3x should be 5x. It's very difficult to get them to understand that there is a rule for this that makes sense. And that it is the application of this rule that allows you to conclude that 2x + 3x is 5x. Furthermore, and here is the difficulty, that same rule is why 3x + a x is (3+a)x.

I believe that for most people mathematics is just brainwashing via familiarity. Most people end up understanding math by collecting knowledge about problem types, tricks, and becoming situationally aware. Very few people actually discover a problem type on their own. Very few people are willing, or have been trained to be willing, to really contemplate a new problem type or situation.

Math education in its practice has nothing to do with learning how to think. At least in my experience and as I understand what it means to learn how to think.

Re: Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learning how to think

#75
I studied Mechanical Engineering, and it was my experience that several professors are only interested in having the students learn how to solve problems (which in the end boil down to math and applying equations), instead of actually learning the interesting and important concepts behind them.

My wife went to school for Architecture, where she learned "basic" structural mechanics, and some Calculus, but still cannot explain to me in simple words what an integral or a derivative is. Not her fault at all: her Calculus professor had them calculate polynomial derivatives for 3 months, without ever making them understand the concept of "rate or change", or what "infinitesimal" means.

For me that's a big failure of our current "science" education system: too much focus on stupid application of equations and formulas, and too little focus on actually comprehending the abstract concepts behind them.

Re: Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learning how to think

#76
post #66
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Symbols are symbols, are symbols. Instead of trying to compress everything into a very limited set of "daily language" symbols we should be trying to expand our ideas, including our language(s).

I'm not sure what that means. Are you saying the use of Greek letters is a good thing, and that we need more of them, not less? Or do you mean that all symbols are equally easy to learn for beginners, whether they're English or Greek or Chinese or abstract? Or do you mean that we should do away with symbols that don't mean anything and use real language to describe math instead? The symbols we use in math aren't to b…

> The symbols we use in math aren't to be confused with the ideas, they are shorthand. Ideas and symbols are independent, and we still have to explain what Greek letters do using English anyway. We use Greek letters for convenience, not for expressive power. Writing "∫ x ∂x" is only faster and more compact than writing "The integral of the equation x over x", it is not an improvement of the concept, right?

It is not, strictly, an improvement on the concept. It's the same concept expressed two ways.

But you cannot symbolically manipulate that prose text, where as you can stick that integral statement into an equation and manipulate it there along with the other expressions of the equation. The ability to perform those manipulations is an improvement.

Re: Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learning how to think

#77
post #67

My problem with Math education was always that speed was an enormous factor in testing. You can methodically go through each question aiming for 100% accuracy and not finish the test paper, while other students can comfortably breeze through all the questions and get 80% accuracy but ultimately score higher on the test. This kind of penalizing for a lack of speed can lead to younger kids who are maximizing for grades…

You couldn't finish your tests in high school, but you're good at math? Have you ever been evaluated for test anxiety? https://www.adaa.org/living-with-anxiety/children/test-anxie... There's no shame in it (although high schoolers can be assholes), and it can help your school accommodate your needs eg extra time to take your exams.

I've never been evaluated but I don't think test anxiety fits in my case - the speed issue was only ever in math / physics.

My accuracy on the questions I got to was very high, I just couldn't go fast enough to complete enough questions. Same deal on SAT type math papers too.

Re: Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learning how to think

#78
Is this a US thing? Why would people still think that math is about numbers? Math is about patterns, which got drilled into us by our teachers in primary school. I really don't understand how US education system can fuck up so badly on fundamental subject like math.

Re: Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learning how to think

#79
post #66
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Symbols are symbols, are symbols. Instead of trying to compress everything into a very limited set of "daily language" symbols we should be trying to expand our ideas, including our language(s).

I'm not sure what that means. Are you saying the use of Greek letters is a good thing, and that we need more of them, not less? Or do you mean that all symbols are equally easy to learn for beginners, whether they're English or Greek or Chinese or abstract? Or do you mean that we should do away with symbols that don't mean anything and use real language to describe math instead? The symbols we use in math aren't to b…

In higher level math symbols are definitely used for their expressive power.

Re: Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learning how to think

#80
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"all these notions are so different from what we have to deal with every day that learning them takes a lot of training" I disagree in the general sense. I think most of mathematics with which "normal people" (by that I mean people who don't get a masters or phd in mathematics) have problems is directly correlated to problems and situations in the real world. The problem is that we teach mathematics as if we were com…

Henri Poincaré once said: "Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things" I know the temptation is great to give lots of examples while teaching math, but you get the risk of only teaching little examples to students and not the abstract vision that math education demands. Take your quadratic equations, it's all nice to demonstrate how coefficients shape the plot. But when you start talking about…

As a counterpoint to that, I flat-out despised abstract Math until I got to college precisely because I found it useless. At best I knew I was probably going into engineering in college and I'd been told "engineers use calculus". That was my sole motivation to learn anything about abstract math, and it was pretty bad. It didn't help that the "examples" given in class were mundane toy problems (ex: "how long will this arbitrary tank take to empty?" Well gee I don't know and I don't care. Is this the last tank of water on the island or something?)

Now physics on the other hand, chemistry, computer science, any time I could apply math to a real-world situation got me motivated. I liked Math that could solve actual existent problems, and I learned said math better as a result. The first time I learned about projectile motion I literally started picturing vectors everywhere for the rest of the day.

It also didn't stop me from learning abstraction later in college. In basic signal analysis we learned about the Fourier transform, and then we learned about the Laplace transform and how it was simply a more general Fourier transform (or the reverse if you prefer). Mastering Fourier first gave the Laplace a relatable mental context, it made the abstractions more real.

By contrast I had a Math professor once who tried to teach us theoretical induction and work his way down to examples. I had no idea what the fuck he was talking about until he hit the examples, then everything clicked all the way back up.

Maybe that's just how I'm wired, but I would argue for more and more relevant examples. There are tons of historical uses of math that people would find interesting. Talk about the math used to build the Hoover dam, or telegraphs, fly satellites, or make medicines, or decode Nazi transmissions. And talk about it in real terms with character, if you must simplify for the sake of time then say that's what you're doing. Make people realize they're learning something that has uses beyond Math class or the rarified ivory towers of Math PhDs. That by learning the material they're learning how to do meaningful things. The original, wildly popular SimCity games were basically raw spreadsheets and formulae, but people learned those spreadsheets and formulae because the games had character.

I know to a lot of Math people the abstractions are the "real" part, but most people I know simply don't process the world that way.

Post reply on HN