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SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster

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Re: SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Automatic landing systems rely on ground support by way of microwave signals from transmitters installed near autoland-capable runways. There's no general position information, and the airborne part of the system can't operate independently of the part on the ground. Civilian GPS signals are limited in terms of position accuracy, too. I believe the CEP is ten meters. That's not bad, but it's not good enough to land a…

Thanks for the detailed response. > Automatic landing systems rely on ground support by way of microwave signals from transmitters installed near autoland-capable runways. There's no general position information, and the airborne part of the system can't operate independently of the part on the ground. Yes, I understand the landing portion has other kinds of support. However, I don't understand how it can not have th…

> OK, so I don't have much of an expectation for older plane models, but my interpretation of the above is that in newer models, autopilot need not disengage before landing and require manual intervention in order to align the plane with the correct track (barring bad weather or other unusual situations like bird collisions, etc.).

What is your definition of manual intervention? Pilots get updated instructions from the tower - the GPS path of the flight within 10 m is not programmed from the beginning due to weather issues, turbulence, traffic at the terminal ends, etc. The pilots hands may not be on the yoke, but they certainly are sending changes to the flight computer throughout the flight.

> So it seems clear in normal situations autopilot has plenty of positioning available to it, enough to find the runway and locate the plane on a display of some sort. That goes pretty clearly against what you said. Am I missing something?

Autopilot landings require a Cat III approach. There are currently no GPS (also known as GBAS for Ground Based Augmentation System) Cat III approaches approved in the US. The autopilot when landing is not using GPS for final approach. The pilot has pre-programmed in the waypoints labeled in the approach plate for the specific runway approach they've been told to take, and then they will switch over to the ILS approach.

The tone of many comments here (yours too) call out people who actually know how the system works and question them. The person you're trading comments with has said twice that GPS is not responsible for the autolanding portion of the flight. They even gave a summary of how instrument landing works - microwaves transmitted on specific frequencies in a specific pattern. You twice try to refute it. And then in your last paragraph you do exactly what he says the software engineers here do and you take offense to!

> sensible software engineers seem to regard aviation as a problem trivially susceptible of perfect solution

> And, as a computer scientist, what seems ridiculous to me is the idea that "Oh, but this system you just described won't work if there is a hurricane and there are turkeys getting rammed through our engines while the pilots are asleep and ATC happens to be on strike in the middle of a nuclear holocaust, so let's "be conservative" and never approve it because it's clearly going to make things worse on average".

Landing a big aircraft is not the easiest thing in the world, if only because the fate of hundreds of people rest in your hands. If you have a system that is designed to cut out the human component, it has to be all or nothing. As we learned from Asiana 214, when pilots have no actual practice doing something even in the absolute best of conditions and still cause loss of aircraft and life, how are they expected to perform when everything is going against them at the exact moment autolanding fails? Everything about flight training is preparing for the worst case, and practicing your skills over and over and over. Complacency can kill people when the margin of error between life and death is razor thin.

Re: SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster

#322
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That used to be true (twice a day, even), but now it just flashes 12:00, or the screen is dead.

A clock that flashes 12:00 is still right twice a day.

Flashing is an error condition.

Re: SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stupid question - can you be certified as a commercial pilot if you are colourblind?

No, you can't. A friend of mine couldn't become a commercial pilot because he has some kind of colourblindness. However, I remember him trying for some time and even campaigning for colourblind people to be admissible as commercial pilots because for the actual flying colourblindness doesn't seem to matter. So, perhaps ridiculous as it may sound taking colourblindness into account when proposing such an improvement i…

You can become color blind later though.

Re: SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster

#324
post #251

Before crying pilot error, we must all read Sydney Dekker's A Field Giude to Understading "Human Error" (and fully appreciate why he uses those quotes). Don't immediately assign blame to the sharp end. Take a look at the blunt one first. Most likely not a pilot error. Assigning blame is a very human need, but assigning it to the most visible and accessible part is almost always wrong.

I can't imagine any scenario where this is not pilot error (unless you had a power failure of the airport lighting systems).

Well, yes -- but the intent of making this deeper assessment is to get at the root of why the pilot may have made the error.

Let's say we do some deep dive assessment and we find that there's several contributions (all contrived for discussion): (1) during summer, sun sets directly behind runway 28R, (2) lighting system activates at 1 hr before sunset, (3) lighting system was refreshed with LED bulbs this year, (4) taxiway C is 30% wider than median taxiway in US airports of size similar to SFO, (5) the A320 (used by Air Canada 759) has reclining seats in the cockpit and this pilot was shorter than the prior pilot for this plane.

If you had an assessment like that you could reasonably take action on some of these without waiting for a fatal accident. The action wouldn't even necessarily have to be to remove/replace/alter these things, it could even be to commission a study to see the wider impact of LED lighting or reclining seats or something. Changing the runway orientation is a very large expense, but constraining 28R use during the critical sunset period is a little less so.

If this pilot made the error, it stands to reason that other pilots may make the same mistake. If we consider a near miss as seriously as we consider a fatal accident we can still learn great things. A near miss is likely only a failure of (N - 1) elements out of the critical N required for a fatal accident.

Re: SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster

#326

There's an mp3 of the radio chatter here: https://forums.liveatc.net/atcaviation-audio-clips/7-july-ks... > Audio from the air traffic controller communication archived by a user on LiveATC.net and reviewed by this newspaper organization showed how a the confused Air Canada pilot asks if he’s clear to land on 28R because he sees lights on the runway. > “There’s no one on 28R but you,” the air controller responds. > A…

The "Where's this guy going" unidentified person on the channel prevented the worst accident in aviation history. Great Job! Give that guy a medal and a movie.

I think the most important thing here is that we stop to think about the gender normativity of the unidentified person's use of the term "guy" in "where's this guy going."

/sarcasm

Re: SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like Sully all over again, but with only seconds to extract story from instead of minutes!

"Taxiway", coming to theatres near you soon. Directed by Clint Eastwood. Starring John Malkovich as The Pilot, Tom Hanks as the "Where’s this guy going?" guy, and Dave Bautista as the taxiway.

Yeah but casting Pauly Shore as the controller? Bold choice.

Re: SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster

#329
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stupid question - can you be certified as a commercial pilot if you are colourblind?

Actually, airline pilots (and pilots generally) are not the only people you need to take into account here. Many other potential users of the runways and taxiways would need to be taken into account, including ground staff and maintenance staff. Since I doubt that all of these are ruled out on the basis of colourblindness, it makes sense to construct a system that is impervious to ambiguity due to colourblindness.

But ground and maintenance staff don't need to identify them by colour from far away. For them, you could rely on simple signage.

Re: SFO near miss might have triggered aviation disaster

#330
post #237
post #176

English is not my native language, but shouldn't the headline have read "SFO near miss would have triggered aviation disaster"? "Might" seems to indicate that something else happened afterwards as a possible result of the near miss

I agree. English is my first language, and the more I read the headline, the more I see it as "Something terrible happened, and the near miss is possibly the cause".

When I fist saw the headline that's why I went to read it. I wanted to know how a near miss 'possibly caused' the biggest disaster in airline history.

The story was very interesting. The title is technically valid. But as another native speaker I think it's very confusing.

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