A media company in Mumbai is giving women a day off during their periods • Hacker News Board

Re: A media company in Mumbai is giving women a day off during their periods

#61

Post by DropbearRob » Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 1:31 PM UTC

fredley wrote: post #2

Stuff like this, while done with good intentions, can threaten to entrench discrimination by having different sets of rules and expectations for people based on their gender. A better solution would be to give 12 extra holiday days per year to everyone, but make it known that it's acceptable to take them under those circumstances.

Oh, sorry to double reply, but I just thought of something devious. What if any of the following apply to the female employee:

Is on birth control to supress having a period.

Has an IUD and is one of the 1 in 5 for whom this stops Having periods for a year.

Has had a hysterectomy.

Has gone through menopause.

Has another condition which causes them to not have periods.

do they have their 12 days ripped from them unceremoniously?

It seems like there are a lot of edge cases here which may provide additional areas to cry "sexism" because for the cases listed above they wont require the 12 extra days, yet without having intimate medical knowledge of your staff, you cannot differentite between one type of non-period having staff member and another (in the "other" case a male).

in any case I'm glad they've done it as a case study on what happens next.

Re: A media company in Mumbai is giving women a day off during their periods

#62

Post by pc86 » Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 1:31 PM UTC

fredley wrote: post #27

nickonline wrote: post #20

This viewpoint is amazing. It's so brilliantly obvious that it's an American saying this statement due to the horrible laws that are so far in favour of the business it's not funny. In Australia (for example) where I am, annually we have 20 days of leave and 10 sick days by law. Those sick days are available for use for any personal issue be it period pain or mental health. I understand in Europe the leave schedules…

I'm British, FYI :-) My suggestion, while obviously extreme (flexible scheduling as mentioned elsewhere in this thread would be a much more reasonable 'solution') wouldn't fly in the USA as nobody takes their holiday days anyway!

I don't know where this idea that Americans don't take their vacation time came from, but it is 100% wrong in my opinion. I have coworkers that have had negative PTO balances for months. Whether with PTO or holidays, I try to get at least one 3-4 day weekend each month. I take least one 2-week vacation every year. Everyone I've worked with over the past decade, with rare exception, is the same.

A friend of mine is a (non-computer) engineering executive and has a particularly generous PTO package of 200 hours a year with a 400 hour rollover cap. He keeps a bank of about 250 hours in case he needs them, but other than that he's using it as fast as he gets it. This in addition to the 12-14 holidays he already gets.

Re: A media company in Mumbai is giving women a day off during their periods

#63

Post by ygra » Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 1:32 PM UTC

croon wrote: post #51

dontflamemebro wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throwaway because no one wants to hear about periods. I am a woman and one time my body decided to have an extremely heavy and painful flow for about a week straight. I had been sick with a cold immediately before that, so I had already let my employer know that I was not feeling well and would be taking some days off, and I did not feel the need to tell my employer every little detail about what was going on. Every…

If your vacation days and sick days are combined into a limited pool which you can use up I completely agree with you, but I think that concept is the real problem. In Sweden for example, vacation days and sick days are separate, and up to a week, the employer is required to pay you during sick leave, and after that social security (equivalent) kicks in. This obviously doesn't use up your vacation days (where employe…

In Germany at least you get three instances of a sick note:

- One for your health insurance, which lists the diagnosis, duration, etc.

- One for your employer which only gives the days you are unable to work

- One for yourself with all the info as well

This neatly solves the problem that you have to tell your employer anything that only concerns your doctor (they're not allowed to ask either).

And my work contract states that I can take leave for any personal reason if needed for up to two days, but after that a doctor's note is required. So in the instance of a period from hell that would make me unable to work, yes, a visit to the doctor is needed, if only for bureaucratic reasons.

Re: A media company in Mumbai is giving women a day off during their periods

#64

Post by heythere124 » Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 1:33 PM UTC

bigmanwalter wrote: post #42

rtx wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither do all woman.

They don't have to take the day off then.

The point is that they can still. Whatever the standard for taking time off work for illness it should apply equally to both genders so there should never be any need for a separate rule/law.

Re: A media company in Mumbai is giving women a day off during their periods

#65

Post by swiley » Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 1:33 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #44

Nobody is going to take advantage of this because "Oh btw, I'm on the rag so I won't be in today" isn't exactly the message you want to broadcast to your coworkers. Then there will be the people who take advantage of this on Mondays and Fridays leading into long weekends. Then everyone will hate the policy. Then they'll extend the extra 12-days to everyone because you can't take back something like this when you mark…

Are long weekends really such a bad thing?

Re: A media company in Mumbai is giving women a day off during their periods

#66

Post by pc86 » Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 1:35 PM UTC

athenot wrote: post #53

pc86 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's perfectly reasonable for a manager to request a doctor's note if you say "I have a cold and will not be in for a few days" and then you are out for 6+.

Yet it's counter-productive. According to [1], people are contagious for about one week, starting from one day before they feel any symptoms. It is actually more productive to send the sick people home (or let them work at least part-time from home) to prevent others from getting sick and also having to take time off. I've been fortunate enough to work in environments where this was acknowledged and practiced, but I'…

I'm not saying people should work when they're sick. I've sent folks on my team home against their will because they were obviously coming down with something. And the flu is very different from a cold.

I'm just saying that when there is an extended absence from work, it's reasonable that your employer request a note. Now maybe 6 or 7 work days doesn't meet the definition of extended for some people, but for me it does.

And as stated elsewhere, this is not about a nosy manager getting their employee's health information. This is about a manager exercising their right to know that the employee is not at work for a legitimate reason. I've had these types of notes before, and they typically just have a date range of when you should not be in the office.

Re: A media company in Mumbai is giving women a day off during their periods

#67

Post by falcolas » Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 1:36 PM UTC

ygra wrote: post #23

epx wrote: post #11

My wife has two very bad and painful days (the first two) every period. I am not sure how she would handle if she had a job.

Sick leave? As far as I know that's exactly what it's for. It also has the benefit of not discriminating whether it's period cramps, migraines, a broken leg, food poisoning, or depression. EDIT: I'm German. Sick leave is completely separate from vacation days here and not limited (although you get less money after six weeks because your health insurance takes over from your employer). Generally I find that one of the…

Speaking for myself (as a standard US employee with a "progressive" HR, I mean Human Asset Management dept), I get 0 sick days. I get three weeks (15 days) which is supposed to be for both vacation and sickness. Someone who can't work two days a month would either be fired or be taking leave without pay, and never able to take paid vacation.

Re: A media company in Mumbai is giving women a day off during their periods

#68

Post by pc86 » Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 1:38 PM UTC

dontflamemebro wrote: post #59

quirkot wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your employer is not entitled to your health information, but they are entitled to proof that something legit is happening. A doctor's note would say something like "dontflamemebro will require medical leave for 4-8 days. Love, Doc Brown"

I was in so much pain that I could not move. Over the counter pain medicine did not touch it. Getting out of the house to go to an unnecessary doctor's visit was out of the question.

Obviously too little too late but a phone call to the OB would have had the note prepared for you, possibly even sent to your employer after the fact. My wife received one when she had her IUD removed that was for the day of the procedure and 1-3 days after (obviously they could have extended the dates if she was in a great deal of pain).

Re: A media company in Mumbai is giving women a day off during their periods

#69

Post by DanielleMolloy » Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 1:39 PM UTC

Geez. Completely wrong direction (and probably just marketing) with underlying sexism.

Female here. Just want to state that it is not nearly as bad for most women most of the time. And effects vary quite a bit, quite a few even get an energy push around day one. (Disclaimer: Your or your friends' mileage may vary.)

Re: A media company in Mumbai is giving women a day off during their periods

#70

Post by DropbearRob » Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 1:39 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #58

DropbearRob wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally get your point, and from a capitalist perspective the solution of the media company in the article dis-incentivises hiring women as a dollar per hour of work metric instantly makes hiring a woman less cost effective. I've seen comments like men don't have the day of pain, so don't "need the holiday" but these people obviously don't own a business or pay other peoples wages. When you are a small business you…

The problem with this logic is that you would never hire a woman, for fear that they could get pregnant and become "unreliable" for 9 months, and completely unavailable for the duration of their maternity leave (while having to keep their job position unfilled). It's far better to apply some humanity to the equation and just give everyone those extra 12 days off (and (mat|pat)ernity leave), so you're not tempted to d…

Im not saying its humane, or just, or right. Its business. The reason you point out is exactly what has happened in the past. In fact my mum used to work for a company that straight up fired any female staff in the secretary pool which got married to protect themselves from exactly the losses you speak of.

Luckily we don't live in that world anymore (40 years ago). And we are working to reduce the dis-incentives of hiring women over men. Im living in the UK where recently paternity and maternity leave are inter-changable and can be split between parents. entitling men to equal leave to women to reduce the incentives of hiring men over women.

There are all kinds of times when people become less productive. Im never advocating never hiring a woman, only that whatever benefits you apply to one act as a hiring dis-incentive unless applied by law to both. Its economics, not ethics.