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China Tells Carriers to Block Access to Personal VPNs by February

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Re: China Tells Carriers to Block Access to Personal VPNs by February

#111

Post by dis-sys »

mikeash wrote: post #102
dis-sys wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like it or not, the GFW helped to created the "most dramatic periods of economic development" in Chinese history. Back in 2010, when Google chose to exit China, many argued the exact same that China is isolating itself from the outside. Such feeling is understandable from a western point of view, I mean for anyone from a western background there is simply no Internet if google/twitter/fb etc. are all unavailable. How…

This period of economic development got started with liberalization in the late 70s. The most you can say is that the GFW helped sustain it recently, and in skeptical of even that.

What you mentioned is a typical misunderstanding. The economic liberalization didn't happen in most part of China until the 90s. For example, Shanghai didn't start until 1991, Beijing was another few years later than that. Even for those two first tier cities, many stuff considered normal in a market economy didn't happen until 10-15 years ago, e.g. buying a property to live in or for investment didn't become mainstream in Shanghai until 2003.

I'd argue that GFW created millions of experienced software engineers for China. It is the assets required for such a developing country. If the market was dominated by Google/Twitter/Fb, how many of them are willing to have their core R&D positions in China? Let's make it no mistake - as a Chinese national, the company need to get your US export license to work on any project that involves stuff like encryption or high performance computing. That export license takes ages to get and there is no guarantee to get it. To send you to the US for meetings/training, you'd be subject to the Mantis Check managed by FBI, it can take anywhere between a few months to a few years to get a 12 months US short term visa.

Now also consider how those companies do their taxes in foreign countries. How much they are going to contribute to the local economy? Just look at how other free countries are attacking their practices.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/australia-now-off...

If you consider all these, it will be clear that Chinese were pushed to the corner to defend the chance/right to develop their country/industry. For me, it is really a choice on whether to kill China's Internet industry or not. Chinese didn't kill it, they kicked out Google/Twitter/Fb etc and build their own Baidu/Alibaba/Tencent/JD/Didi/360, that is all.

Re: China Tells Carriers to Block Access to Personal VPNs by February

#112

Post by diego_moita »

powstudio wrote: post #11

China is one black swan event away from an economic collapse and possible Arab spring. The authoritarian Chinese government is starting to have some sense of fear now. Between the 300%+ gdp/debt ratio, second real estate bubble bursting in shanghai/tier1 cities, huge spike in shadow lending, stalled stock market, complete frozen capital control, Trump's 100 day ultimatum to China regarding trade deficit, demographics…

> China is one black swan event away from an economic collapse and possible Arab spring.

This sounds like the Marxists' "eminent collapse of capitalism" or "this will be the year of Linux on the desktop" or Mao Ze-Dong's "America is a giant with clay feet".

Someday you'll be proven right. But only after being proven wrong for a million times.

Re: China Tells Carriers to Block Access to Personal VPNs by February

#113

Post by topranks »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #62
bitcharmer wrote: post #36

The way things are going I'm expecting to see the same initiative in the UK or Germany sooner than you think. That will stop them evil terrorists.

A strange thing to downvote, considering that the UK government has basically promised exactly this sort of measure.

Yep. Banning the use of strong encryption (introducing penalties for it,) is the logical conclusion of what Theresa May has said she wants to do.

Re: China Tells Carriers to Block Access to Personal VPNs by February

#114

Post by topranks »

lngnmn wrote: post #72
kbaker wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it can. By watching the size and timing of flows with 'regular HTTPS' traffic vs 'VPN HTTPS' traffic, it can be distinguished.

It should be https-inside-https (or http2 or even plain TLS) scheme for multiple AWS IPs. A bit laggy but will do the job. Wildcard blocking of these would break too many legitimate services, including banking, airlines, etc. BTW, the task of DPI-ing of all https traffic on the operator side is intractable.

Yeah, like the ToR "meek" obfuscation method does.

https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/meek

Re: China Tells Carriers to Block Access to Personal VPNs by February

#115

Post by mikeash »

dis-sys wrote: post #111
mikeash wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This period of economic development got started with liberalization in the late 70s. The most you can say is that the GFW helped sustain it recently, and in skeptical of even that.

What you mentioned is a typical misunderstanding. The economic liberalization didn't happen in most part of China until the 90s. For example, Shanghai didn't start until 1991, Beijing was another few years later than that. Even for those two first tier cities, many stuff considered normal in a market economy didn't happen until 10-15 years ago, e.g. buying a property to live in or for investment didn't become mainstr…

I don't see how what I said is a misunderstanding or how these facts support your claim.

China's GDP growth has been high for 40 years. There's no possible way that the GFW created this, given that it wasn't around until about halfway through this period. Even if you say that it somehow doesn't count until the 90s, it still doesn't line up, since the GFW started out as purely political censorship and they weren't wholesale blocking foreign competitors until well into the 2000s.

Re: China Tells Carriers to Block Access to Personal VPNs by February

#116

Post by throwaway312373 »

chairmanwow wrote: post #32

From my experience in China, it seems that the vast majority of Chinese citizens have no idea what a VPN is and or why they would use it. Friends of mine that are Chinese citizens that study abroad in the US make extensive use of VPNs to circumvent the GFW. Every technology company that I've come across in China has invested a great deal of effort into establishing stable VPN connections. I have seen several "VPN mic…

I once dim-wittingly interviewed with one cheap Chinese Jibo clone maker. The thing that struck me was the how much they relied on VPNs.

At one point, I was told their plan was to use Google Translate (through a VPN) for Mandarin-English translation, at which point "tensorflow" would come in and do some magic.

Needless to say, I roadrunner-ed out of there.

Re: China Tells Carriers to Block Access to Personal VPNs by February

#117

Post by pyroinferno »

diego_moita wrote: post #112
powstudio wrote: post #11

China is one black swan event away from an economic collapse and possible Arab spring. The authoritarian Chinese government is starting to have some sense of fear now. Between the 300%+ gdp/debt ratio, second real estate bubble bursting in shanghai/tier1 cities, huge spike in shadow lending, stalled stock market, complete frozen capital control, Trump's 100 day ultimatum to China regarding trade deficit, demographics…

> China is one black swan event away from an economic collapse and possible Arab spring. This sounds like the Marxists' "eminent collapse of capitalism" or "this will be the year of Linux on the desktop" or Mao Ze-Dong's "America is a giant with clay feet". Someday you'll be proven right. But only after being proven wrong for a million times.

This year is the year of the Linux desktop though...

Re: China Tells Carriers to Block Access to Personal VPNs by February

#118

Post by dis-sys »

mikeash wrote: post #115
dis-sys wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you mentioned is a typical misunderstanding. The economic liberalization didn't happen in most part of China until the 90s. For example, Shanghai didn't start until 1991, Beijing was another few years later than that. Even for those two first tier cities, many stuff considered normal in a market economy didn't happen until 10-15 years ago, e.g. buying a property to live in or for investment didn't become mainstr…

I don't see how what I said is a misunderstanding or how these facts support your claim. China's GDP growth has been high for 40 years. There's no possible way that the GFW created this, given that it wasn't around until about halfway through this period. Even if you say that it somehow doesn't count until the 90s, it still doesn't line up, since the GFW started out as purely political censorship and they weren't who…

Please look at my post again, I said GFW _helped_ to create the recent economic development. Of course the economy of a country like China can not be improved single-handedly by a system or by a single sector.

I further pointed out that GFW ensured that all core Internet infrastructures used in China is designed/developed in China, that led to the creation of a Dev community with millions of experienced engineers. Do you believe that such a professional community is a huge asset for a developing country?

Re: China Tells Carriers to Block Access to Personal VPNs by February

#119

Post by dis-sys »

rini17 wrote: post #100
dis-sys wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First thing first, I didn't downvote you or anyone else - because I simply don't have enough karma to downvote anyone. Please check my public profile before pointing fingers, that would be a much more civilised move. I was educated in the west, with PhD from the top ranking university. I spent 12 years living in your society and do understand where you came from. The problem is you seem to be forcing your definition…

Cultural or ideological differences are never good reason to cut all communication. It will backfire(economically, psychologically) and you seem to refuse to even acknowledge this basic fact. And I am not writing this as some disrespecting westerner, but as Eastern European. Having to figure out what is truth and what is propaganda in non-free-speech environment has severely morally stunted our nations, and I can't b…

The link and communication is always there and it is strong. I spent 12 years living/studying/working in the west, such experience is shared by millions of other Chinese in my generation. Most western media are freely accessible from China, e.g. BBC/CNN/Foxnews. Comparing today's China to eastern Europe back in the USSR days is not a good idea, e.g. did USSR encourage its youths to study in the west? China has been doing this in the last 39 years.

It is also questionable whether the so called non-free-speech environment is the same here - not judging what people can/can not do in those old USSR days as I don't know anything about it, but you can openly criticise CCP in China as long as the criticism is not coordinated, I have been doing that for ages, never got into any trouble.

Re: China Tells Carriers to Block Access to Personal VPNs by February

#120

Post by mikeash »

dis-sys wrote: post #118
mikeash wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how what I said is a misunderstanding or how these facts support your claim. China's GDP growth has been high for 40 years. There's no possible way that the GFW created this, given that it wasn't around until about halfway through this period. Even if you say that it somehow doesn't count until the 90s, it still doesn't line up, since the GFW started out as purely political censorship and they weren't who…

Please look at my post again, I said GFW _helped_ to create the recent economic development. Of course the economy of a country like China can not be improved single-handedly by a system or by a single sector. I further pointed out that GFW ensured that all core Internet infrastructures used in China is designed/developed in China, that led to the creation of a Dev community with millions of experienced engineers. Do…

How could it help to create something that was created long before it? As I said in my original comment, the best you could say is that the GFW helped sustain it recently, which seems like it might be what you're actually trying to say here.
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