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Could Ruby be Apple's language and API future?

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Re: Could Ruby be Apple's language and API future?

#51

Post by wvenable »

AndrewO wrote: post #14
chc wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could change 3.3.1, but they didn't have to blanket-ban Ruby to begin with — they made already have four languages they allow. The fact that Ruby was banned shows that they don't even place it on a level with C++, much less Objective-C. On top of that, MacRuby was just starting efforts to target the iPhone when Apple banned it, leading the developers to throw their hands in the air and say, "Oh well, didn't real…

Just remember that we're talking about a company that managed to migrate its entire product line to an entirely new processor with few people (inside and outside the company) really knowing until they unveiled the first demo machines. Compared to that, adding a new programming language (that doesn't even affect their existing 3rd party applications) to a platform they own completely is child's play.

To be fair, NeXTStep very publicly run on x86 before NeXT was bought by Apple -- it didn't just appear out of nowhere. And the actual processor is mostly abstracted away -- it's not difficult to simply recompile your apps for another CPU.

Re: Could Ruby be Apple's language and API future?

#52

Post by lurch_mojoff »

ynniv wrote: post #42
panic wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is sponsoring the development of MacRuby. It's not sponsoring pypy or Haskell LLVM backends.

Just because they "sponsor" MacRuby doesn't mean they favor ruby as a replacement for Objective-C. Until ruby is as fast as Objective-C, I see no reason they would make such a change. Low performance languages have never gained serious adoption on embedded platforms, which includes everything that has made Apple, Inc (not Computer) successful . Maybe I'm a non-believer, but I also don't see any benefit to Apple suppo…

Measuring and comparing the "fastness" of a language is a tricky thing in general, but I think it is safe to say that for most intents an purposes we can consider MacRuby just as fast as Objective-C. The point you seem to be missing is that both run on top of the same runtime and both use the same foundational classes. So the same operation performed on a MacRuby String and Objective-C NSString should take exactly the same amount of time.

The only thing that prevents MacRuby from being fully compatible with Apple's "embedded platforms" is the lack of garbage collector on said platforms. By the time MacRuby is sufficiently stable and optimized Apple's portable devices will be capable of comfortably running memory managed code.

As for the "LLVM API", for one, I don't really understand how is that supposed to work - there is no "native" LLVM language and so on; for two, such an API will be lower-than-objc, not higher; and for three, reimplementing Cocoa and CocoaTouch as some new supposedly more abstract (whatever that's supposed to mean) API is going to be a monumental and almost certainly very disruptive task - and all of it for no good reason.

A lot of the comments, I'd say yours included, seem to be coming from the presumption that Apple's adoption of a higher level than Objective-C language is inevitably going to be a huge overnight change. But the beauty and genius of MacRuby is precisely that it does not require a huge overnight change. You can mix and match Ruby and Objective-C as you need or like. You can write high level, terse code using the HotCocoa wrapper or you can fall down to the nitty-gritty OS X C APIs, for a good number of which there are MacRuby bindings.

Re: Could Ruby be Apple's language and API future?

#53

Post by gaiusparx »

I believe Obj-C will always be what Apple build their API frameworks. But it is possible that MacRuby will be an option in future for programming on iOS like it is on Mac OSX.

When I heard of MacRuby, I had this immediate crazy thought that Apple choose Ruby to piss off Google :-) You know Apple vs Google and Ruby vs Python, and Google is basically a Python house.

Re: Could Ruby be Apple's language and API future?

#54

Post by lurch_mojoff »

chc wrote: post #35
Niten wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they did have to blanket-ban it to begin with. If they're to make an exception for this, then in the interest of avoiding fragmentation they won't be making an exception for the Ruby language in the abstract; rather they'll be making the exception for the MacRuby implementation in particular. MacRuby is a unique implementation, and programming Cocoa through MacRuby is vastly different (and incompatible) experien…

I don't know about "not considered stable." The official MacRuby site claims the current version is "Stable for Cocoa Development." It's not on the iPhone, granted, but that's because it's banned, so nobody wants to waste time on it.

MacRuby is not on the iPhone because there is no garbage collected Objective-C runtime on the iPhone, NOT because it is banned.

Re: Could Ruby be Apple's language and API future?

#55

Post by draegtun »

gaiusparx wrote: post #53

I believe Obj-C will always be what Apple build their API frameworks. But it is possible that MacRuby will be an option in future for programming on iOS like it is on Mac OSX. When I heard of MacRuby, I had this immediate crazy thought that Apple choose Ruby to piss off Google :-) You know Apple vs Google and Ruby vs Python, and Google is basically a Python house.

Google is basically a Python house

Google is basically a C++, Java, Python and Javascript shop :) ref: http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2007/06/rhino-on-rails.html

Be interesting to see if Go sneaks into that list.

Re: Could Ruby be Apple's language and API future?

#56

Post by kevbin »

ynniv wrote: post #44

If Apple cared about having a more friendly API language, they wouldn't have deprecated the Java bridge: [ http://cocoadevcentral.com/articles/000024.php ] The only languages Apple has ever expressed a preference for are Pascal, C, Objective-C, C++, and JavaScript. Why would they add ruby when they already have JavaScript?

Once upon a time Java was a "co-equal" with its own colored box. But Apple's been pretty mercurial when it comes to languages: Clascal, Object Pascal, AppleScript, ScriptX, SK8, NewtonScript, HyperTalk, Dylan, MCL, {AppleSoft|Integer|Mac} Basic, Smalltalk, Java, Corba IDL... most of those are way more friendly than Java, but died just like desktop Java. MacRuby's a little different, I'm guessing it's a research project to see what might be compelling about a unified, llvm-based, multiple-language runtime.

Re: Could Ruby be Apple's language and API future?

#57

Post by c00p3r »

chc wrote: post #39
c00p3r wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did they already replace Matz MRI to LLVM-based one which can pass all ruby-spec? ^_^

The original interpreter is already replaced with YARV in 1.9. But yes, MacRuby replaces YARV with an LLVM-based virtual machine. (Only passes about 85% of RubySpec right now, though.) Incidentally, Rubinius is also based on LLVM these days.

Such a fundamental changes like unladen swallow in python or migrating to LLVM-based VM in ruby must be backed by very powerful and resourceful entity. Good news!

Re: Could Ruby be Apple's language and API future?

#59

Post by burriko »

joe_the_user wrote: post #47
chc wrote: post #6

I've heard people suggest this before, but Apple doesn't seem to feel the same way. Ruby (even MacRuby) is banned on the iPhone along with every other language that isn't C or Javascript. Apple plays things close to the chest, but banning a language that you intend to base the whole platform around just doesn't make sense. Syracusa isn't wrong that Objective-C is getting long in the tooth, but Apple has shown more in…

Yeah, Also, it seems a bit ironic for whoever is developing MacRuby. You're donating labor to a company that gives nothing away for free or even cheap. Then they ban you. Makes you think ... perhaps you should target Ubuntu next time...

Stating that Apple 'gives nothing away for free' is quite hyperbolic. Apple certainly contribute to open source in more ways than you're giving them credit.

See http://www.macosforge.org/ for some examples.

Re: Could Ruby be Apple's language and API future?

#60

Post by dazzawazza »

mkramlich wrote: post #40

speaking as someone who wuvs Python and dislikes both Ruby and Objective-C I hope the answer is no :)

Unlike (I suspect) a lot of people here I don't mind Objective-C and I really dislike Ruby.

Would this effect my decision as to whether I develop for the iOS/OSX platform. No of course not.

At the end of the day I actually dislike all languages, just to varying degrees. Python is the one I dislike the least. As soon as I can get my programming job done without the need for programming I will do it.

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