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Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons

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Re: Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons

#81

Post by apl »

criddell wrote: post #73
lwansbrough wrote: post #48

This is hard, but perhaps even harder than you might think. I read an extremely long exploration of this concept a couple weeks ago. It's a layman explanation but it really does a great job of outlining the real complications of such a device. Here's the article: https://waitbutwhy.com/2017/04/neuralink.html One takeaway that gives you the sense of scale: there are at least 40,000 neurons in 1mm^3 of the cerebral cor…

Modern CPUs have on the order of 10 billion transistors and we have a pretty good idea of how those work. In my (uneducated) opinion, it feels like current tech must be close to providing the tools and scale necessary to start figuring this stuff out, no?

We didn't have to reverse-engineer the CPU. Also, CPUs are rationally designed; we have zero guarantees that an evolved brain follows any principles at all. Every brain region may be highly specialised to a single algorithm or task with zero mechanistic overlap. Figuring out deep neural nets is a closer analogy, and at the moment we have very little intuition for how to do even that. Keep in mind that the brain is vastly more complex than even the most advanced ANNs.

On the technical side: The most advanced neural techniques allow for parallel measurement calcium signals in ~10,000 neurones. That's a long way off from complete observation!

Re: Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons

#82

Post by ceejayoz »

aquadrop wrote: post #12
bognition wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly it would depend on the size of the cage.

2x2x2 meter cage.

It further depends on the amenities on offer, and the bird's size.

Hell, folks (including me) want to live on a Mars base, where "living in a cage" is probably an apt description of life for at least the first couple generations.

I'd sure as hell hand over a copy of my brain to a corporation in exchange for the ability to back up my brain and functionally live forever.

Re: Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons

#83

Post by gene-h »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #2

If you were offered the chance to become as intelligent as Feynman but only if you turn over a copy of all your future thoughts to the private business that made this possible, would you take it? Something non-invasive, like a computer that images your brain while you sleep. If we are machines, then it seems reasonable that within a few millennia we might have this capability. I'm trying to think up some scenarios wh…

Honestly, I think it's more worth focusing on the near term ethical problems of such technology rather than the far off ones. So let's say that this project does pan out, and three years down the road we determine a programmer with one of these neural interfaces installed can open 20 terminal windows at the same time. With a special set of emacs/vim bindings they can bang out code 100x faster than regular programmers. So now companies are sponsoring their programmers to get the surgery.

Sounds like a pretty good deal right? Well in three-five years time, surgery probably won't change much. Installing such devices is still going to be pretty risky. And even then, having the hardware in introduces its own medical risks. Our super-programmers can't ever go swimming because of the risks of the fiberoptic and power jack plug going through their skull getting infected. This is a problem current medical implants have, so probably one we will still have in a couple years time.

There are a whole host of other problems with this too. IE what do you do when the hardware in your head is obsolete? Can the company that paid to put it in fire you because you aren't keeping up, in part because you have obsolete hardware in your head?

[0]http://amputeeimplantdevices.com/what-are-the-risks/

Re: Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons

#84

Post by devindotcom »

gene-h wrote: post #80

My only worry with this is that it might be too focused on developing technology rather than doing basic science to make such things possible. Time and time again trying to develop the tech before the science is ready has not been very fruitful. Current neural interfaces tend to kill neurons and eventually fail. Determining how to avoid these problems is still a very big question. This is incredibly important for mak…

Yeah, I've been working on a BCI explainer and this is a critical point. The science isn't even close, either in hardware, software, or even basic brain knowledge.

Of course, it's kind of one of those situations where you need the knowledge to get the knowledge, but we'll break the cycle somehow!

Re: Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons

#85

Post by bllguo »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #54
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it was firmly tongue in cheek. :) I've been thinking of trying to write some short stories pulling from various themes in technology. Most ideas have been done to death, but with a bit of skill it might be possible to write something worth reading. A tangent, but: I've been wondering how a novelist builds their skill. They're not born with it. One idea would be to watch a movie and write it like a book, transcr…

No ideas about the second, but an aside on the first. 'Most ideas have been done to death' is a central reason I have stopped reading novels that much. Ah its one of those, he will do this. Ah yes, I see the twist. its one of those.

I highly empathize with this. These days I'm just interested in imagination. I don't care if a book or novel or movie is good. I will most likely never consume it. I'm looking up synopses and scanning them for innovative ideas.

Re: Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons

#86

Post by AgentME »

jacquesm wrote: post #77
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #2

If you were offered the chance to become as intelligent as Feynman but only if you turn over a copy of all your future thoughts to the private business that made this possible, would you take it? Something non-invasive, like a computer that images your brain while you sleep. If we are machines, then it seems reasonable that within a few millennia we might have this capability. I'm trying to think up some scenarios wh…

The question you should ask is would Feynman have agreed to it? Because that's the person who will have to put up with it. You can only ask such a question if you're willing to give the future recipient of the gift the option to back out and be sent back to your present state. And if that new individual isn't 'you' in a legal sense you might find that contract nul and void anyway. > Where it gets really strange is if…

>There is a Black Mirror episode around that called 'Be right back'.

Well, they were approximations based on people's social media presence, and the episode's conflict mainly came from the imperfection of the approximation. I think you get a very different set of cultural conflicts if the simulation is of an accurate copy of the mind (issues more like in the book Permutation City).

Re: Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons

#87

Post by [deleted] »

mtgx wrote: post #26
jahabrewer wrote: post #3

> when people read aloud or read silently to themselves the neural signal in the superior temporal gyrus can be used to reconstruct the words How long until counter-interrogation techniques include not even thinking about what you want to conceal?

How long until minds are scanned at the airport?

[deleted]

Re: Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons

#89

Post by captainmuon »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #68
captainmuon wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are somewhat offtopic, but: That sounds a bit like the church in the middle ages saying: "your sins are what is holding society back, that is why you can't have nice things". Or like many utopians, who wanted to create a "better man". Or their detractors, who said utopia doesn't work because people are flawed. I don't want to change people, I want to change society.

I don't want to change people, I want to change society. Somehow you think those are different things and I'm not sure why. Society only changes when enough people individually change. You can force change through government or coercion, but it's temporary and unsustainable. utopia doesn't work because people are flawed. Right, I'd agree with that.

What I mean is, I don't want Utopia for some kind of Adornoian "liberated human" or socialist übermensch, I want an Utopia in which I myself can live. Despite my flawed socialisation and biology. I think we can refactor society, instead of reforming or revolutionizing it. Keep the same people, don't coerce them into anything. Don't wait for future technological improvements, but reap the benefits of centuries of previous improvements. We have been technically able to satisfy the needs of everybody from a purely material point of view for decades now. Now we need to fix the allocation of these goods, and the crisis of political representation (or the lack thereof for many people).

Re: Darpa Wants Brain Implants That Record from 1M Neurons

#90

Post by gene-h »

devindotcom wrote: post #84
gene-h wrote: post #80

My only worry with this is that it might be too focused on developing technology rather than doing basic science to make such things possible. Time and time again trying to develop the tech before the science is ready has not been very fruitful. Current neural interfaces tend to kill neurons and eventually fail. Determining how to avoid these problems is still a very big question. This is incredibly important for mak…

Yeah, I've been working on a BCI explainer and this is a critical point. The science isn't even close, either in hardware, software, or even basic brain knowledge. Of course, it's kind of one of those situations where you need the knowledge to get the knowledge, but we'll break the cycle somehow!

I wouldn't be too worried about the software, the human brain is pretty good at adapting to things. A great demonstration of this was an experiment where congenitally blind people were able to 'see' by sitting in a chair with an array of 400 vibrating pads.[0] There has also been some success on the software side with hippocampal prostheses[1]. All in all it's pretty simple stuff, we've been able to reverse engineer the transfer function for part of the hippocampus, so if that region is damaged we can emulate it with an implant and some matlab code.

I would say that this is the end of the beginning for BCIs.

[0]https://tcnl.bme.wisc.edu/laboratory/founder [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocampal_prosthesis#Recent_...

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