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24-core CPU and I can’t move my mouse

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Re: 24-core CPU and I can’t move my mouse

#361

Post by CyberDildonics »

striking wrote: post #279
gizmo wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False dilemma. You can have both. It's okay if a fully optimized release mode binary takes a bit longer to compile, but compiling a few million lines of code for a debug build shouldn't take more than a second or two. Also consider the leverage factor. Improvements to the compiler benefit all users of the programming language, so it's worthwhile to invest in high quality compilers.

In what language can we have both? Yes, we can use caching compilers ( https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/ccache ) to speed up builds with few changes. We can lower optimization levels (although that barely gives you an increase in compile speed compared to the runtime speed you lose and the fact that it makes your program do slightly different things). There's no slider from "pessimum" to "optimum". You need to do…

D is a language where you can have both. C++ architected correctly can get much closer though. Much larger compilation units are a start. After that, realizing that modularity comes from data formats and protocols means you can start to think about minimal coupling between pieces. I think dynamic libraries for development are very under utilized.

Re: 24-core CPU and I can’t move my mouse

#362

Post by mirekrusin »

joshuamorton wrote: post #316
mmarks wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would expect kernels to be quite small (#file, line-count) compared to major Applications like Unreal Games and Civilization 5. I've never worked on Chrome, but I can safely say the amount of source code in a few Unreal Games and Civilization5 dwarfs the drivers and OS code I've worked on. Take Unreal then add a team of developers adding onto it for multiple years thru multiple releases. Then add all the middleware…

For reference, the kernel has ~15 million LoC, and according to a not exactly reliable or verifiable infographic on reddit, BioShock infinite contains 631 miles, which would be between 3 and 10 million LoC.

Also, Linux kernel is C vs the mentioned rest C++.

Re: 24-core CPU and I can’t move my mouse

#363

Post by p0nce »

andrepd wrote: post #190
titzer wrote: post #45

Full disclosure: I work for Google on Chrome. A Chrome build is truly a computational load to be reckoned with. Without the distributed build, a from-scratch build of Chrome will take at least 30 minutes on a Macbook Pro--maybe an hour(!). TBH I don't remember toughing out a full build without resorting to goma. Even on a hefty workstation, a full build is a go-for-lunch kind of interruption. It will absolutely own a…

> Damn, are we doing this wrong? Give me a tool that's: (i) as fast, (ii) as mature and well supported, (iii) as powerful as C++ and I will switch in a heartbeat. But until there is such an alternative it's futile to complain about the shortcomings of C++, because if you want the powerful, zero-cost abstractions, the mountains of support, and access to billions of existing lines of code, you pretty much have nowhere…

So: a C++ competitor shall beat it in every dimension you've choosen, until then it's futile to complain about the shortcomings of C++. This doesn't sounds very logical, only like a case of sampling bias.

Re: 24-core CPU and I can’t move my mouse

#364

Post by xaa »

thriftwy wrote: post #302
blunte wrote: post #37

This is great work. I hope MS can improve Windows 10 by fixing this. I just added a new Win10 laptop with much better specs than my 3 year old rMBP, and I'm shocked by how much apparently random latency I experience with the UI in Windows 10 compared to the Mac. That's not to mention the issues of sloppier track pad (which constantly detects my left hand while I type) or the ungodly slow unzip (via 7z). If only Apple…

I have just bought a Windows 10 laptop for my wife. I don't know if it is random updates or junkware or whatever, but sometimes the system will lock out for minutes - task manager shows <50% of load on any of disk, ram and cpu, but even waiting for task manager to launch can take a minute! I've witnessed a simple program (FAR manager) taking a minute to show its UI!

Yeah, I've been out of the Windows game for some years now, but my wife has a few (desktop and laptop), occasionally comes to me and says "it's slow. fix it." And indeed it is slow, even on moderate browser use -- things just hang. Specs are more than adequate.

I have to say (after halfheartedly looking into it a few times): "Um, sorry honey, I have no idea. Guess it's a Windows thing." She nods, and goes back to patiently waiting minutes for the browser to stop hanging! Seems that people using Windows just accept this kind of thing as a given, to the point they don't even notice it. (I've installed Linux for her a few times, but of course, it's too different, doesn't run Photoshop, etc...)

Re: 24-core CPU and I can’t move my mouse

#365

Post by brucedawson »

mmarks wrote: post #262
titzer wrote: post #45

Full disclosure: I work for Google on Chrome. A Chrome build is truly a computational load to be reckoned with. Without the distributed build, a from-scratch build of Chrome will take at least 30 minutes on a Macbook Pro--maybe an hour(!). TBH I don't remember toughing out a full build without resorting to goma. Even on a hefty workstation, a full build is a go-for-lunch kind of interruption. It will absolutely own a…

Not to take away from your point, but in my experience the vast majority of C++ build pipelines even at major companies can still be improved. Few people enjoy 'improving the build', it often touches everything, and requires discipline to keep it working. Most of the projects I've worked on have been larger than Chrome, I've seen the compile time for BioShock Infinite go from 2 hours down to 15 minutes with serious w…

A lot of time has been spent on optimizing Chrome's build: - Ninja build system will perfectly parallelize the build without overloading resources (modulo this OS bug) - Meta-build system was recently completely replaced (gyp-> gn) to improve builds - Lots of work on clang-cl to allow compiling Chrome for Windows without using Microsoft's compiler - Distributed build system to further increase parallelism

So, lots of work has been done to deal with the build times. And probably not a lot of low hanging fruit to be found. But, still more work is being done. Support is being added for 'jumbo' builds (aka unity builds, where multiple translation units are #included into one) which is helping a bit with compile and link times.

Re: 24-core CPU and I can’t move my mouse

#366

Post by reaperducer »

andrepd wrote: post #193
mpweiher wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Damn, are we doing this wrong? Yes, and I mean "we" as in "this industry". I just recently talked to someone whose Swift framework(s) were compiling at roughly 16 lines per second. Spurred on by Jonathan Blow's musings on compile times for Jai[1], I started tinkering with tcc a little. It compiled a generated 200KLOC file (lots of small functions) in around 200 ms. Then there are Smalltalk and Lisp systems that are…

Are you serious? You want to make a product: a Web browser. What technology are you going to choose? The one that makes your browser fast but gives you more work, or the one that makes your browser slower but makes compilation less of a nuisance to you ? It's mind boggling that some would openly say that, hey, who cares about performance that much, these compilation times bother me, the developer. On a browser of all…

Of the developers I've met recently, this wouldn't surprise me at all. The world revolves around them. Not the product. Not the user. Not the company. They are a "developer" or worse, an "engineer" and can do no wrong.

Re: 24-core CPU and I can’t move my mouse

#367

Post by martinald »

Dayshine wrote: post #206
SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen Android get "out of control" on lower end devices. If you stick with higher end devices and/or first-party the experience is usually very slick. I don't think I've ever had a OnePlus device freeze up or stutter on me, for instance.

My OnePlus X certainly does. When charging or after 10/15 minutes of intense graphical use it starts getting sluggish and unresponsive.

Probably the CPU/GPU scaling back because the phone is getting too hot?

Re: 24-core CPU and I can’t move my mouse

#368

Post by goda90 »

My workstation was recently "upgraded" from a Window 8.1 workstation with a 4th gen i5 to a Windows 10 laptop with 5th gen i7. The extra RAM and SSD over HDD is great, but whether it's because it went from a quad-core to a dual-core hyperthreaded CPU, or because of the jump to Windows 10, the mouse lag is considerably more noticeable now. I've convinced them to upgrade my laptop again, but now this article doesn't give me much hope for my new work toy.

Re: 24-core CPU and I can’t move my mouse

#369

Post by korzun »

captainmuon wrote: post #342
titzer wrote: post #45

Full disclosure: I work for Google on Chrome. A Chrome build is truly a computational load to be reckoned with. Without the distributed build, a from-scratch build of Chrome will take at least 30 minutes on a Macbook Pro--maybe an hour(!). TBH I don't remember toughing out a full build without resorting to goma. Even on a hefty workstation, a full build is a go-for-lunch kind of interruption. It will absolutely own a…

Could it be that we are doing the web browser wrong? I think large parts of chrome actually belong into the OS. The network parts, the drawing library (skia), the crypto implementation, the window and tab management, and so on. The javascript engine could be factored out, too, so more apps could benefit from it (without bundling a whole frickin Chromium). Video and audio would be deferred to DirectShow, Quartz, VLC,…

You are going backward with the 'Internet Explorer' like buy-in. That approach would only be faster in one segment; everything else will be slower.

There is no point in speeding up the raw compile time by a couple of minutes if you are increasing the development and testing time by a couple of weeks.

Re: 24-core CPU and I can’t move my mouse

#370

Post by deong »

hydromet wrote: post #249
titzer wrote: post #45

Full disclosure: I work for Google on Chrome. A Chrome build is truly a computational load to be reckoned with. Without the distributed build, a from-scratch build of Chrome will take at least 30 minutes on a Macbook Pro--maybe an hour(!). TBH I don't remember toughing out a full build without resorting to goma. Even on a hefty workstation, a full build is a go-for-lunch kind of interruption. It will absolutely own a…

With crap and hassle like this in the year 2017 for something as "simple" as a web browser, be sure to remind your boss Ray Kurzweil at Google, "the singularity is near" ROFLOL

At the risk of looking like I take the "Singularly" at all seriously...(and putting aside the non-sequitur about Kurzweil having anything to do with Google's shipping software)...

The implication you're making is that because computers have weird little glitches that pop up to cause havoc every once in a while, then it must be laughable to imagine they could rival the marvels of human intelligence. What that tells me for certain is that you haven't paid much attention to human intelligence.

There are flat-earthers, anti-vaccine nuts, and people convinced we faked the moon landings. We'll happily argue for thousands of years over whether the kid a virgin had is or is not the same person as his dad, but not that dad, the other dad. Show me someone who intuitively understands probabilities, and I'll show you someone who incorrectly assesses how people understand probabilities. I'm pretty sure the odd bug here and there doesn't disprove the ability of machines to outthink us.

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