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Indian IT, “You're Fired”

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Re: Indian IT, “You're Fired”

#51

Post by keithpeter »

pc86 wrote: post #28
mabbo wrote: post #15

I've never understood the ways that modern companies handle layoffs- call people into a meeting room one by one, tell them they're being let go, then escort them out of the building. It's not just that it's cold, but it builds a huge cloud of oppression for everyone else. I just watched this happen to a friend, and the guy who was sitting next to him is now saying "I could be next, better start talking to recruiters"…

Someone is losing their job unexpectedly. Nearly everyone spends too much of their income and saves too little for retirement/emergencies, so losing your job unexpectedly can have devastating financial consequences. Even bouncing back and finding another job could set your retirement back years if it doesn't happen quickly enough, and ruin your credit if you don't have appropriate savings. I don't think there's a way…

"Nearly everyone spends too much of their income and saves too little for retirement/emergencies, so losing your job unexpectedly can have devastating financial consequences."

UK: in larger organisations (I mean big enough to have more than say 20 employees being made redundant) there is a consultation process that lasts a month or can last up to three months depending on the number of people being made redundant. There is a process that has to be kept to and there is a statutory minimum amount of redundancy pay [1] as well as payment in lieu of notice. Redundancy payments are tax free up to a limit

The result is in my experience less secrecy (consultation period) and some sort of financial safety net, at least a few months worth.

[1] https://www.gov.uk/redundant-your-rights/redundancy-pay

Re: Indian IT, “You're Fired”

#52

Post by emodendroket »

baursak wrote: post #38
mabbo wrote: post #15

I've never understood the ways that modern companies handle layoffs- call people into a meeting room one by one, tell them they're being let go, then escort them out of the building. It's not just that it's cold, but it builds a huge cloud of oppression for everyone else. I just watched this happen to a friend, and the guy who was sitting next to him is now saying "I could be next, better start talking to recruiters"…

> I don't know what a better way would be, but I'd sure like to see some innovation in that space. Something less cold, something more human. It might help to remember that fundamentally, modern corporations are top-down totalitarian regimes, and adjust your expectations accordingly.

Sure, but there's no fundamental law of the universe that says we have to just accept that unconditionally and let them do whatever they please.

Re: Indian IT, “You're Fired”

#53

Post by pc86 »

jacobr1 wrote: post #48
pc86 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone is losing their job unexpectedly. Nearly everyone spends too much of their income and saves too little for retirement/emergencies, so losing your job unexpectedly can have devastating financial consequences. Even bouncing back and finding another job could set your retirement back years if it doesn't happen quickly enough, and ruin your credit if you don't have appropriate savings. I don't think there's a way…

The way to make it more humane is a generous severance.

Severance just accelerates the firing process. If you've got to provide 3 months severance, you're laying people off at least 3 months sooner than you otherwise would. I'm sure there have been companies contemplating layoffs that have been able to just barely make numbers to avoid it.

Not arguing against severance just saying that "well throw some money at them" doesn't necessarily make it any better.

Re: Indian IT, “You're Fired”

#54

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

shagie wrote: post #35
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #17

Many comments here are laughing about the irony of the outsourced labor becoming irrelevant, but it should kind of be worrying. Organizations are lowering the number of jobs to the point that only the most skilled and experienced workers get jobs. If there are no lower level positions for people to take on, how will the masses work their way up and improve? How can our local and global economies improve for everyone…

I don't see that. What I do see is a recognition that only in specific cases with well defined product boundaries does outsourcing development work reasonably. On the other hand we see many companies recognizing that telecommuting and remote work, especially with things that have no end date (keep the servers running, fix the bugs, add these new features) have hidden costs. Those costs are often exasperated by time z…

> There are many entry level positions open, just you need to be able to be in the chair.

This statement proves my point exactly. Either you need to be skilled enough to have the leverage to work remotely, or you need to be lucky enough to live in one of the few cities that happen to be growing economically at the moment. When economic growth and opportunity for the unskilled is concentrated to such a small portion of the planet and country, the rest of us suffer for it. It's a continued assault on the middle class of most of the world, and has profound destabilizing effects on those areas affected by these trends.

Re: Indian IT, “You're Fired”

#55

Post by eecc »

mabbo wrote: post #15

I've never understood the ways that modern companies handle layoffs- call people into a meeting room one by one, tell them they're being let go, then escort them out of the building. It's not just that it's cold, but it builds a huge cloud of oppression for everyone else. I just watched this happen to a friend, and the guy who was sitting next to him is now saying "I could be next, better start talking to recruiters"…

I think the problem is with the ubiquity of firearms in the USA; you want to escort someone out of the building before he/she tilts and starts shooting other people, starting from the manager that just threw them under the bus...

Re: Indian IT, “You're Fired”

#56

Post by Clubber »

nonamechicken wrote: post #44
PenguinCoder wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's no difference from the US employees who have faced layoff or their jobs being outsourced.

But don't you have unemployment benefits and social security? In India, there is nothing.

It's pretty paltry in the US. You can't take social security until 65 (I think it's 67 now). You get unemployment but it's administered at the state level and in most states it caps out at under $800 a month, but it's been a while. A moderate mortgage is twice that.

Also, we get our health benefits from companies and not the government, so as soon as you are laid off, all your health benefits are no longer paid by the company. You can pay for it yourself, but with a family, it's easily over $1000 a month with even meager health insurance.

Welfare is hugely capped as are food stamps. You can only be on them for so long and it's such a social stigma in the US, most newly fired people don't even consider it.

On top of that, US companies don't like hiring people who have been laid off. They think something along the lines of "well if they got laid off there, there must be a reason." It's ironic because layoffs are generally the fault of the leadership, yet the workforce takes the blame. Corporate leadership likes to think they are there for a reason too and therefore infallible.

I never thought I'd be playing the, "who has the worse government." between the US and India. Honestly I thought India would be better at social protections than the US is, simply because every modern country is better than the US is.

All that said, I'm sorry to hear India is going through this. It really sucks. We have the highest percentage of people who gave up looking for work than we've had for a long time (if ever). It will taint your workforce for years to come. The US still hasn't gotten over it and it's been going on full force for 20+ years now.

Re: Indian IT, “You're Fired”

#57

Post by [deleted] »

emodendroket wrote: post #52
baursak wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know what a better way would be, but I'd sure like to see some innovation in that space. Something less cold, something more human. It might help to remember that fundamentally, modern corporations are top-down totalitarian regimes, and adjust your expectations accordingly.

Sure, but there's no fundamental law of the universe that says we have to just accept that unconditionally and let them do whatever they please.

[deleted]

Re: Indian IT, “You're Fired”

#58

Post by shagie »

nonamechicken wrote: post #42
LordKano wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many storied have we heard, or lived through, of people being forced to train their Indian replacements in order to receive severance?

One can forego severance in the worst case. But in India, the companies won't give us service certificate if we don't dance to their tunes. This certificate is required for the next job.

While it does little good for me to say it, that is something that probably needs to change. Failure to do this could lead to some skewing of labor markets. It is in the same category as taking the passport of a foreign worker and indentured servitude.

Workplace stack exchange has a few stories of these letters: https://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/relievi...

Re: Indian IT, “You're Fired”

#59

Post by donquichotte »

"Indian software services companies are under tremendous pressure to continue to show growth in a slowing global market that is also experiencing increased protectionism in the west."

Maybe the managers in the west who made the decision to lay off entire IT departments and replace them by Indian companies started realizing that with the cost of the impedance mismatch in language and culture between a company and its IT deparment, off-shoring is more expensive than running a domestic IT department.

Re: Indian IT, “You're Fired”

#60

Post by skocznymroczny »

mabbo wrote: post #15

I've never understood the ways that modern companies handle layoffs- call people into a meeting room one by one, tell them they're being let go, then escort them out of the building. It's not just that it's cold, but it builds a huge cloud of oppression for everyone else. I just watched this happen to a friend, and the guy who was sitting next to him is now saying "I could be next, better start talking to recruiters"…

I think it's mostly an American thing. In Poland (and probably other European countries), under a normal work contract, you are told in advance about being laid off, at least two weeks I think. It gives you enough time to look for another job, and it gives you time to pass your work to your coworkers. No one really does retaliation here, it's all done in a mostly peaceful atmosphere, the laid off employee is trying to finish what he started and pass on the work to the person that will replace him.
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