Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–220 of 352 posts

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#211

Post by thanatropism »

calafrax wrote: post #142
wu-ikkyu wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>patient self-survey is just as objective as any other test. Subjective: based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. Objective: (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

What is the difference between being depressed and "feeling" depressed? What is the difference between being schizophrenic and having the "opinion" that Satan speaks to you through your neighbor's cat? Mental illness is defined by what a person feels and believes. What you feel and believe is subjective but you can objectively establish that a particular cluster of subjective feelings and beliefs is abnormal vis-a-vi…

Not what you asked exactly, but response to drugs sometimes leads to an (objective) differential diagnosis: if someone is depressed and flips out in a manic attack when starting antidepressants... that's not Major Depressive, that's Bipolar.

How do you objectively verify "manic"? You can track hours slept. No one fakes sleeping two hours a day for a month while having, say, good motor skills in the daytime.

This matters because recurring brief hospitalization is necessary for some people to get back on their axis. This is NOT "sanity days" or "mental healing", it's a clear cut medical issue.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#212

Post by KirinDave »

phil21 wrote: post #206
KirinDave wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is where it gets tricky. > Is your negative attitude due to a medical condition or you just being an asshole who has an attitude problem? See, if it's diagnosed depression then it's not tricky all. It's because of a medical condition. Why even say this? Why even imply this? For people with depression, sometimes "being positive" is "getting out of bed and finding a way to make it through the day" or even simply…

> It's because of a medical condition. Why even say this? Why even imply this? I didn't imply it. I said it is irrelevant. No one cares if you being an asshole is due to your depression or you just being you. The impact on the business is the same either way. > I'm not sure if you meant to be, but you're dismissing this person's condition in the most insulting way possible. Right, obviously this is a very emotional t…

> I didn't imply it. I said it is irrelevant. No one cares if you being an asshole is due to your depression or you just being you. The impact on the business is the same either way.

I care.

> Right, obviously this is a very emotional topic for you. I think you will find that I probably have lived this situation more than you realize,

I am very sorry if you had terrible experiences, but they don't change that what you're saying is that a medical condition is an objective and valid thing to discriminate upon. There is a somewhat obscure word for this: "ableism."

> I said make sure it's not known you received said treatment, as your career in many managerial/executive fields is now over. Again, you can hate that statement all you want - but I'm telling a truth from my personal experience. I made no illusions as to me wanting this to be the case? Where did you get that?

Stop being a willing tool of people that want to make this so. What you're describing is not "the way things are." It's "the way you're helping to make them." We are this industry now. We can remake it as we see fit.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#213

Post by PhasmaFelis »

TallGuyShort wrote: post #193
eecc wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically you're boiling it down to sex and laying down the guilt at the feet of the healthy young adults whose behavior is all but unexpected. Wouldn't you rather call it the failure of a community - a society - to prepare its new members to the complexities of life? Oh but it's easy to climb up the high horse, brandish the sword of Morals and throw the erring off the tower (incidentally, it's the same ISIS does…

It's nothing to do with morals. Unsafe sex at an early age is just plain a stupid dangerous decision, and there's plenty of people to tell you that. Sure - I feel bad for the people who are now going to be paying for the consequences for the rest of their lives, but it's not some arbitrary religious code. It's not so different from experimenting with drugs in that regard.

Expecting kids to wisely abstain when their brains aren't fully developed yet and their bodies are telling them that having sex is the most important thing they could possibly do is foolish. Giving them ready access to contraception and sex ed so they don't harm themselves or others is easy and effective, and there's no good reason not to do it.

You are looking at a problem with a simple and well-understood solution, and instead of talking about implementation you're going "Tsk, tsk, it's their own fault for being stupid." So, yes, you're absolutely moralizing.

> it's not some arbitrary religious code.

Giving teenagers worthless abstinence education instead of proven sex ed is the definition of an arbitrary religious code.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#214

Post by phil21 »

KirinDave wrote: post #212
phil21 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's because of a medical condition. Why even say this? Why even imply this? I didn't imply it. I said it is irrelevant. No one cares if you being an asshole is due to your depression or you just being you. The impact on the business is the same either way. > I'm not sure if you meant to be, but you're dismissing this person's condition in the most insulting way possible. Right, obviously this is a very emotional t…

> I didn't imply it. I said it is irrelevant. No one cares if you being an asshole is due to your depression or you just being you. The impact on the business is the same either way. I care. > Right, obviously this is a very emotional topic for you. I think you will find that I probably have lived this situation more than you realize, I am very sorry if you had terrible experiences, but they don't change that what yo…

> I care.

Point taken :) I will rephrase as: The vast majority of your co-workers could care less why you're being an asshole to them, if it's a sustained problem.

> I am very sorry if you had terrible experiences, but they don't change that what you're saying is that a medical condition is an objective and valid thing to discriminate upon. There is a somewhat obscure word for this: "ableism."

So your position is that you can act any way you like to your co-workers at work, undermine entire projects with your negativity, cause morale issues for other staff, and if you happen to have a medical condition to explain all that your employer just has to deal? Having been that guy, fuck that. I deserved to be fired and re-evaluate my life, medical condition or no medical condition.

I don't think the world works that way, and I honestly don't think I'd like it to. Not everything needs to pander to someone with a problem - and I say that as someone with problems I don't want anyone pandering to. The workplace should be as much of a meritocracy as possible.

There is a reason the words "reasonable accommodation" are used in this context. We could argue all day on what reasonable is, but even the courts understand you need the base ability to do the job regardless of your disability.

> Stop being a willing tool of people that want to make this so. What you're describing is not "the way things are." It's "the way you're helping to make them." We are this industry now. We can remake it as we see fit.

This is a decent point. But unfortunately I am not in a position of power in the industry to affect change, and at this point my career would be harmed if I tried to take the moral high ground. I will absolutely say this would be a personal failing of mine - I'm not willing to be the one sacrificed for the greater good here, and that is certainly part of why this problem exists.

I shouldn't have opened my mouth on the topic, and I certainly already regret it. It's far too emotional and nuanced of an issue to really discuss in an open forum on the Internet, and there are certainly personal things I'm sure we'd enjoy discussing in detail. Cheers!

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#215

Post by Clubber »

vorpalhex wrote: post #35
intheletter1 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhg, I am in that exact situation right now. I've done the therapy thing in the past, didn't help. Meds in the past seemed to help but hard to isolate them as THE factor that helped me out of a rut. So now I feel out of options. I am so burned out. So much on my plate, so much work to do, and literally not one neuron fires to get me going. My memory and mental function, at an all time low. I gotta believe this just g…

Ask for a sabbatical. Take a month (or better yet, three). It will benefit both you and the company. Discuss options here, and whether or not it's paid (or paid partially). It's a hard ask and a really hard conversation to start, but it sounds like you need the time.

I've just started my 3rd month of sabbatical. It's wonderful. Best money I've spent.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#216

Post by Mz »

throwaway2928 wrote: post #50

Not that long ago, I was considering joining a startup where an old manager of mine was the head of eng. They seemed to be doing some cool stuff, another friend had recently joined and spoke well of it, and I thought I'd give it a go. As part of that process, my old manager took me out for coffee to talk about the company, etc. When we chatted, he basically laid down that he was concerned- when I had worked for him,…

I was always feeling like shit those days that I worked for him in large part because of how he ran things.

This is an excellent point. It sounds like things are better for you and I am glad of that.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#217

Post by Mz »

KirinDave wrote: post #212
phil21 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's because of a medical condition. Why even say this? Why even imply this? I didn't imply it. I said it is irrelevant. No one cares if you being an asshole is due to your depression or you just being you. The impact on the business is the same either way. > I'm not sure if you meant to be, but you're dismissing this person's condition in the most insulting way possible. Right, obviously this is a very emotional t…

> I didn't imply it. I said it is irrelevant. No one cares if you being an asshole is due to your depression or you just being you. The impact on the business is the same either way. I care. > Right, obviously this is a very emotional topic for you. I think you will find that I probably have lived this situation more than you realize, I am very sorry if you had terrible experiences, but they don't change that what yo…

I got pulled into this discussion because of seeing the quote of you saying "I care." And I am not at my best today, but wanted to thank both of you for this part of this discussion.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#218

Post by TallGuyShort »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #213
TallGuyShort wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's nothing to do with morals. Unsafe sex at an early age is just plain a stupid dangerous decision, and there's plenty of people to tell you that. Sure - I feel bad for the people who are now going to be paying for the consequences for the rest of their lives, but it's not some arbitrary religious code. It's not so different from experimenting with drugs in that regard.

Expecting kids to wisely abstain when their brains aren't fully developed yet and their bodies are telling them that having sex is the most important thing they could possibly do is foolish. Giving them ready access to contraception and sex ed so they don't harm themselves or others is easy and effective, and there's no good reason not to do it. You are looking at a problem with a simple and well-understood solution,…

I think you missed the part where I said unsafe sex. I'm trying my darndest to find where I said abstinence, but gee golly I just can't do it. But I guess it just has to be someone else's fault somehow.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#219

Post by stevenbedrick »

lazyasciiart wrote: post #114
stevenbedrick wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a really great realization to have had! For the record, what your old manager was doing (directly asking you about your mental health status in a quasi-interview setting) was probably illegal, at least in the US (IANAL). There are pretty strict rules around the kinds of things that employers are allowed to ask prospective employees about, and health (mental or otherwise) is very much on the "not allo…

Not quite. There are laws about why an employer can decide not to hire you, and it is easy to argue that if an employer asked about a protected condition and then decided not to hire you, they did so because of that information - so generally employers try very hard to avoid knowing about protected conditions for a candidate so they can't be accused of discrimination if they don't hire you. (In this case, the manager…

Ah, thanks for the clarification- that's a really important point.

Re: Mental health is still an issue in the workplace

#220

Post by gerbilly »

While it's great that we are discussing this topic, my first reaction is: why does a worker even need an excuse?

Isn't it a bit odd that companies who otherwise trust employees with business critical matters, sometimes matters of life and death even, won't trust them to be mature enough to decide when they need to take time off?

When I was in grade 7, me and this girl Elissa were seated at the back of the class. We had the kind of desks where you had to lift up the top to get at your books.

We were lifting the tops up to hide behind them while 'secretly' telling each other stupid jokes and giggling.

In retrospect, the teacher definitely knew what we were doing but he probably figured since we were generally good kids he'd just let us get away with it and have a bit of fun.

Post reply on HN