I'm not a Woman in Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#571

Post by fruzz » Thu, Jul 06, 2017, 2:05 PM UTC

Dove wrote: post #318

fruzz wrote: post #14

There's sexism in tech, and to address it you have to call it for what it is. I'm glad her experiences are such that she hasn't encountered these barriers, but other people have, and they need these words and spaces. Take my previous job. Women were objectified on Slack. A woman was groped, though she didn't report it out of concern for the repercussions. In meetings execs, male execs would only address/look at the m…

> but as a group, it's undeniable that there's extra obstacles I'm not sure you can really say that. It's true, women as a group encounter problems with being treated as sex objects, and there are cultural reasons for that, blah blah blah. So women have a unique experience. BUT! Men experience a pressure to succeed that we as women can hardly fathom. Consequently, they wind up in jobs they need , in a way we never wi…

Sexism hurts men too. Nor am I saying men don't have problems specific to them - they do.

However, I'm saying there's a problem in terms of how women are treated in tech at a group level that create obstacles specific to them. That men, as a group, do not face these obstacles.

When it comes to hard numbers, even when other factors are taken into account, women as a group do indeed have it worse in tech. When it happens at a group level like this, it means there's group-level barriers that can be addressed to make the playing field less biased and closer to a meritocracy. Some of the solutions are simple - like removing names from resumes when initially reviewing them for new employees.

We've all got problems. Being a woman doesn't mean you automatically have it worse than a particular dude. But I'm not talking about individual circumstances, I'm looking at aggregate data, and there's data there that can't be ignored.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#572

Post by fruzz » Thu, Jul 06, 2017, 2:05 PM UTC

Dove wrote: post #318

fruzz wrote: post #14

There's sexism in tech, and to address it you have to call it for what it is. I'm glad her experiences are such that she hasn't encountered these barriers, but other people have, and they need these words and spaces. Take my previous job. Women were objectified on Slack. A woman was groped, though she didn't report it out of concern for the repercussions. In meetings execs, male execs would only address/look at the m…

> but as a group, it's undeniable that there's extra obstacles I'm not sure you can really say that. It's true, women as a group encounter problems with being treated as sex objects, and there are cultural reasons for that, blah blah blah. So women have a unique experience. BUT! Men experience a pressure to succeed that we as women can hardly fathom. Consequently, they wind up in jobs they need , in a way we never wi…

Sexism hurts men too. Nor am I saying men don't have problems specific to them - they do.

However, I'm saying there's a problem in terms of how women are treated in tech at a group level that create obstacles specific to them. That men, as a group, do not face these obstacles.

When it comes to hard numbers, even when other factors are taken into account, women as a group do indeed have it worse in tech. When it happens at a group level like this, it means there's group-level barriers that can be addressed to make the playing field less biased and closer to a meritocracy. Some of the solutions are simple - like removing names from resumes when initially reviewing them for new employees.

We've all got problems. Being a woman doesn't mean you automatically have it worse than a particular dude. But I'm not talking about individual circumstances, I'm looking at aggregate data, and there's data there that can't be ignored.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#573

Post by mindcrime » Thu, Jul 06, 2017, 2:21 PM UTC

richmarr wrote: post #561

mindcrime wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not "comparing" anything. Simply pointing out that non-white / non-male individuals don't have a monopoly on experiencing discrimination. Nothing you said above contradicts that in any way. I'm not saying that certain group don't experience more or even more severe discrimination. But this narrative that seems so prevalent today, the whole "you can't know anything about discrimination if you're a white male, and…

You're defending white men against a point that I did not make. I was careful to make my original comment in a precise and defensible way. You admit that women and minorities experience more frequent and severe discrimination. From that follows that a sample of those people are statistically more likely to have greater experience with discrimination than an otherwise-similar sample of white men. That's the point I ma…

I think we're just talking around each other here. Anyway, I've said all I have to say about this for now. People can take from it what they will.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#574

Post by richmarr » Thu, Jul 06, 2017, 2:28 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #573

richmarr wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're defending white men against a point that I did not make. I was careful to make my original comment in a precise and defensible way. You admit that women and minorities experience more frequent and severe discrimination. From that follows that a sample of those people are statistically more likely to have greater experience with discrimination than an otherwise-similar sample of white men. That's the point I ma…

I think we're just talking around each other here. Anyway, I've said all I have to say about this for now. People can take from it what they will.

> I think we're just talking around each other here.

No, we aren't talking around each other at all, but I can understand why you might feel uncomfortable discussing your motivations so by all means let's stop.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#575

Post by Latty » Thu, Jul 06, 2017, 2:39 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #417

monocasa wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you check the thread you'll clearly see my interest wasn't whether discrimination happens at all, it's whether it is to the point of being literally ostracized, as was stated. You don't think putting the kid who was being 'uppity' in a coma doesn't cause imply ostracization for the others like him? Particularly when there was no repercussions from perceived authority figures? > Perhaps don't impersonate other pe…

If you look up the word ostracize in the dictionary, you'll find no association with severity of injury. > It's hard to 'impersonate' on a forum where every post has my username on it. Are you new to the internet or something? I might ask you the same, answering a question that was asked specifically to another person isn't how you "internet".

He answered with a useful, relevant comment that provided the data point you were asking for.

I'll back his experience up with another source: https://thegavoice.com/atlanta-police-release-details-12-rec...

The point you were trying to make was that these were isolated incidents, that these people could live their lives around them. Reading that list, it's clear that isn't true - people threatening to kill you, beating you up, these aren't signs that you can live you life normally.

Clearly, we aren't in the same place we were when we had state-supported segregation, but there is a reason these minorities are still protected, and there is still significant discrimination.

This all means that there is a big difference between a community coming together in a space exclusively for them to try and push for inclusion, and discrimination.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#576

Post by Latty » Thu, Jul 06, 2017, 2:44 PM UTC

rabreu08 wrote: post #299

Latty wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you don't understand the core problem. You know what, I think people, in general, should be allowed to discriminate. The whole "right to refuse service" shtick - people shouldn't be forced to do things they don't want to do, even if they are following stupid beliefs. That said, I recognise there are things that have to beat that. Just like free speech doesn't include shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre, we have…

I also can name a few things that are dominated by woman, or latin, jews, etc... Is this really a problem? I think that some of these lines of thought, while are valid points to justify and individual problem, tend to fall into a slippery slop that tends to beleving that a true (ideal) society is all greyed out with everyone in the same mold: genderless, opinionless, etc...

There is nothing inherently wrong with a lack of diversity, but it is almost always a symptom of an issue with society or systems limiting people. For example, I would argue that primary school teachers being almost entirely women is indeed an issue with systemic and social sexism.

You have completely missed my point. The point is that everyone should have opportunity if they want to do something and are capable of it, not some kind of homogenization. Women are currently actively pushed away from the industry. If women don't want to be in tech, that's fine, the issue is that women that do get pushed away, discriminated against, or never get the opportunity to learn they are interested in it.

There is no attempt to make everyone the same - the attempt is to try and allow everyone to embrace their own differences - to give everyone the same opportunities.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#577

Post by Latty » Thu, Jul 06, 2017, 2:47 PM UTC

tarsinge wrote: post #551

wumpus wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that France is much, much worse at integrating immigrants than the US. Also, you editorialized a lot in your description of "active integration".

My knowledge of the US is very limited but that's not what I've seen, for the me the "integration" in the US seems not very deep. At least in France in Paris there is a mixed middle class, the diversity in the workplace is huge at every level (well ok except for developers, even if there is a lot of CS grads the majority goes to consulting), there is a common culture and group of friends and colleagues are diverse wi…

The US is very big - a lot of the US has extremely good integration.

The reality is that integration follows a similar pattern - bigger cities mean better integration. Find a vote map and you've basically got a map of how good integration is.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#578

Post by Latty » Thu, Jul 06, 2017, 2:49 PM UTC

sbov wrote: post #257

Latty wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you don't understand the core problem. You know what, I think people, in general, should be allowed to discriminate. The whole "right to refuse service" shtick - people shouldn't be forced to do things they don't want to do, even if they are following stupid beliefs. That said, I recognise there are things that have to beat that. Just like free speech doesn't include shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre, we have…

The problem encompasses way more than you claim it to. It includes things like quality of service, social networks, and mostly, basic human dignity. If what you said was actually the problem, then the civil rights act wouldn't have outlawed segregation.

I was simplifying to try and make a point relevant to the topic at hand - obviously it's not literally just about complete inability to live your life - we have more rights than that.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#579

Post by Nadya » Thu, Jul 06, 2017, 2:52 PM UTC

richmarr wrote: post #561

mindcrime wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not "comparing" anything. Simply pointing out that non-white / non-male individuals don't have a monopoly on experiencing discrimination. Nothing you said above contradicts that in any way. I'm not saying that certain group don't experience more or even more severe discrimination. But this narrative that seems so prevalent today, the whole "you can't know anything about discrimination if you're a white male, and…

You're defending white men against a point that I did not make. I was careful to make my original comment in a precise and defensible way. You admit that women and minorities experience more frequent and severe discrimination. From that follows that a sample of those people are statistically more likely to have greater experience with discrimination than an otherwise-similar sample of white men. That's the point I ma…

>Instead you chose to argue the point "everybody experiences at least some discrimination". You're probably right, but in doing so you choose a definition of the word "discrimination" so broad that it becomes much less meaningful.

I grew up in a poor, primarily black/latino urban community. Not to anyone's surprise, the minority groups of the area (whites/asians) received far more discrimination than the majority groups. That's going to happen basically anywhere. Classic in/out group dynamics that humans display in every society across the world that I can think of.

This idea that white people only suffer "small amounts of discrimination, under a broad definition" is a joke. Ever been beaten up just because you were white and walking through a black neighborhood? Is that "small discrimination" or am I spreading the definition too broadly? Because to me it sounds like you grew up in a primarily white suburb and assumed because white people don't experience much/any discrimination in an area where they are the majority that they simply can't experience any meaningful amounts of discrimination anywhere.

>You admit that women and minorities experience more frequent and severe discrimination.

And the point that was trying to be made is that white people can be a minority. So nothing is contradicting this statement or the experience of white men who have faced discrimination. The problem is that in modern dialogue, white people are assumed to be the majority always and as such have no say in discrimination because they can't "possibly have faced any meaningful amount".

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#580

Post by mcbobbington » Thu, Jul 06, 2017, 3:11 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #350

mcbobbington wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adventured is right, about both feminism and censorship. I think the ERA would actually help men more than women. Right now it is much better to be a woman in america. Feminism has more than accomplished its goals of equality. Women can do anything they want, yet they also get these benefits: If accused of a crime less likely to be convicted If they hit a man far less likely to be charged with harsh domestic violence…

This is the sort of generic ideological rant that we're trying to avoid here, and we ban accounts that use HN primarily for this purpose. So would you please stop posting like this to HN? Nothing good or new can come of it; these discussions are always the same and always become nasty. Boring and uncivil are the two sins on HN.

Dang, please help me understand. I was responding to the thread in the comments. How would have been a better way to express my thoughts in a HN appropriate way?