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US military intelligence agencies have influenced over 1,800 movies and TV shows

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Re: US military intelligence agencies have influenced over 1,800 movies and TV shows

#201

Post by cuckcuckspruce »

kstenerud wrote: post #27
specializeded wrote: post #5

So in exchange for production support, DOD and IC reserve the right to back out if certain topics are broached, or if they’re represented in a way they don’t approve of. The movies and tv shows come to them, and they’re subsequently influenced as part of the deal. Am I reading this correctly? They’ve really tried to make it scary but I’m left feeling “well, yeah I guess that makes sense, sucks tho I guess”...

"The CIA even sabotaged a planned series of documentaries about their predecessor, the OSS, by having assets at CBS develop a rival production to muscle the smaller studio out of the market. Once this was achieved, the Agency pulled the plug on the CBS series too, ensuring that the activities of the OSS remained safe from public scrutiny."

The fact the the CIA has assets at a US broadcasting company is a scary thought.

Re: US military intelligence agencies have influenced over 1,800 movies and TV shows

#202

Post by cuckcuckspruce »

dragonwriter wrote: post #198
coldtea wrote: post #197

Most major movies are, if not "CONSUME", "OBEY", etc billboards (like in "They Live"), at least party-line affairs promoting the establishment. Between promoting the prevalent mores (instead of criticizing them), military manipulation to promote "national interests" like in TFA, product placements, and plots for your inner 13 year old in movies for 40 year olds, with the rare exception it's a long way since the 60s-7…

“The Network” and “Apocalypse Now” were, and are remembered now because they were, rare exceptions in their own time as well.

This is an example of the filter effect. It's like how people turn on the classic rock station where they play only classic rock hits and assume that music today is just worse - the classic rock station doesn't play the stinkers that were also on the radio and popular, so you get the illusion that classic rock has always been solid gold hits.

Re: US military intelligence agencies have influenced over 1,800 movies and TV shows

#203

Post by tnecniv »

fokinsean wrote: post #125
visarga wrote: post #12

I am sure "24" was pure propaganda. And "West Wing". I enjoyed them though, at the time. But now they would just revolt me.

Same with "The Wire". I enjoy it however I feel like it grants a false sense that law enforcement follows all the rules for obtaining warrants for surveillance.

There's a lot of plot points where the cops break laws in service of their investigation.

Re: US military intelligence agencies have influenced over 1,800 movies and TV shows

#204

Post by coldtea »

cuckcuckspruce wrote: post #202
dragonwriter wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“The Network” and “Apocalypse Now” were, and are remembered now because they were, rare exceptions in their own time as well.

This is an example of the filter effect. It's like how people turn on the classic rock station where they play only classic rock hits and assume that music today is just worse - the classic rock station doesn't play the stinkers that were also on the radio and popular, so you get the illusion that classic rock has always been solid gold hits.

>This is an example of the filter effect.

Yeah, no. There was a big counter-establishment wave in the 60s and early to mid 70s, documented in myriads of books, articles, biographies, documentaries and such.

And it reflected in Hollywood too.

(In European cinema it was even more extreme with every second movie having leftist leanings).

Were there other, more typical/banal movies? Yes. But that critical movies were far more common in the 60s-70s than they are now is a historical fact, not some "filter effect".

(Also the idea that all periods have the same median quality in arts and same distribution of tendencies is wrong. Some periods do have more/better art than others, or more art of a certain tendency than others, for various reasons).

Re: US military intelligence agencies have influenced over 1,800 movies and TV shows

#205

Post by coldtea »

dragonwriter wrote: post #198
coldtea wrote: post #197

Most major movies are, if not "CONSUME", "OBEY", etc billboards (like in "They Live"), at least party-line affairs promoting the establishment. Between promoting the prevalent mores (instead of criticizing them), military manipulation to promote "national interests" like in TFA, product placements, and plots for your inner 13 year old in movies for 40 year olds, with the rare exception it's a long way since the 60s-7…

“The Network” and “Apocalypse Now” were, and are remembered now because they were, rare exceptions in their own time as well.

They are remembered because they were quite good. We also remember the "Sound of Music" from the same era, and it's anything but anti-establishment.

But my points wasn't that ALL movies were like that, but that far more movies were like that. The 60s had a whole counter-culture, anti-establishment and protest movement that's not the same as the 80s (decade of the self, yuppies) and 90s or even today (identity politics and conservatism battling it out).

Decades do have a character and certain tendencies or fashions if you like, including in the arts.

Re: US military intelligence agencies have influenced over 1,800 movies and TV shows

#206

Post by gumby »

bpodgursky wrote: post #188
lotsofpulp wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ludicrous propaganda of military jet fly overs, national anthem spectacles, huge flags, and people in the military standing on the side of the field at private for profit sports game in a stadium paid for by taxpayers for the team owner's benefit is hilarious.

Military jet fly-overs cost basically nothing at the margin. Pilots need X hours of air-time a month to stay trained, so it costs very little to do it over public events. It's money that will be spent either way.

So it doesn't matter where they are flying? The comment to which you are replying isn't talking about the cost, but the propaganda value. Plus if they have to fly, let them fly over a military base, not a populated area.

Re: US military intelligence agencies have influenced over 1,800 movies and TV shows

#207

Post by clock_tower »

gumby wrote: post #183
joemi wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The money and involvement have had quite an effect. Just look at the percentage of combat films Hollywood makes and compare to 30 years ago. To go by Hollywood the country is on a war footing. But the US has been at war in Iraq/Afghanistan for the past 16 years, so the "war footing" is actually just a fact of life, not something spurred by US military throwing money at Hollywood. There are many many movie-going age…

I would not call that being on a "war footing." Sure, tax dollars have gone to blow stuff up around the globe but it's day-to-day impact on the vast majority of Americans' lives is negligible. Horrific for many veterans and their families of course but they are a small proportion of the population. It's been a bonanza for military contractors of all sorts as well. Compare it to pre-vietnam-war activity: no bond drive…

> no sense that there is an existential threat that needs combating and then all involved can go back to the farm and "study war no more."

That much, at least, I'd call a good thing. A watchful peace, or a world where violence simmers rather than boils, is a realistic goal, but attempts to permanently end war have a history of semi-permanently ending peace instead. Think of the Peace of Versailles, which will be 100 years old in two years...

Re: US military intelligence agencies have influenced over 1,800 movies and TV shows

#208

Post by dragonwriter »

coldtea wrote: post #205
dragonwriter wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“The Network” and “Apocalypse Now” were, and are remembered now because they were, rare exceptions in their own time as well.

They are remembered because they were quite good. We also remember the "Sound of Music" from the same era, and it's anything but anti-establishment. But my points wasn't that ALL movies were like that, but that far more movies were like that. The 60s had a whole counter-culture, anti-establishment and protest movement that's not the same as the 80s (decade of the self, yuppies) and 90s or even today (identity politic…

> But my points wasn't that ALL movies were like that, but that far more movies were like that.

The movies that get critical acclaim now are often like they, just as they were then.

> The 60s had a whole counter-culture, anti-establishment and protest movement that's not the same as the 80s (decade of the self, yuppies) and 90s or even today (identity politics and conservatism battling it out).

Sure, the cultural context is different today than in the 1960s, but your doubly wrong in characterizing politics today as identity politics vs. conservatism. Is identity politics significant, sure—on both sides of the left/right divide (just as was the case in the 1960s.) Particularly, white identity politics is probably more of an overt factor today than it has been any time since the 1968.

> Decades do have a character and certain tendencies or fashions if you like, including in the arts.

Sure. I'm just saying that you are wrong in your specific identification of how the character of the late 2010s differs from the 1960s. I have no problem with the much simpler claim that there is a difference.

Re: US military intelligence agencies have influenced over 1,800 movies and TV shows

#209

Post by joemi »

gumby wrote: post #183
joemi wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The money and involvement have had quite an effect. Just look at the percentage of combat films Hollywood makes and compare to 30 years ago. To go by Hollywood the country is on a war footing. But the US has been at war in Iraq/Afghanistan for the past 16 years, so the "war footing" is actually just a fact of life, not something spurred by US military throwing money at Hollywood. There are many many movie-going age…

I would not call that being on a "war footing." Sure, tax dollars have gone to blow stuff up around the globe but it's day-to-day impact on the vast majority of Americans' lives is negligible. Horrific for many veterans and their families of course but they are a small proportion of the population. It's been a bonanza for military contractors of all sorts as well. Compare it to pre-vietnam-war activity: no bond drive…

Sure, we're not rationing food and supplies, but I'd argue that many people think there is an existential threat that needs combating. The war on terror, which you mentioned, can be viewed as another front to the war in Iraq/Afghanistan (or vice versa), and I think you'll find that many people in the US view them as directly related. The threat a lot of people perceive is from "terrorists" or "Islam" or even just "middle easterners". And that was at least part of the reason the current US president was elected. The travel bans in the US are not normal everyday business. They are part of that. The US might not be in a WWII-style war footing, and it might not affect you specifically very much that you're aware of, but it's definitely still in a war footing.

Re: US military intelligence agencies have influenced over 1,800 movies and TV shows

#210

Post by gumby »

joemi wrote: post #209
gumby wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not call that being on a "war footing." Sure, tax dollars have gone to blow stuff up around the globe but it's day-to-day impact on the vast majority of Americans' lives is negligible. Horrific for many veterans and their families of course but they are a small proportion of the population. It's been a bonanza for military contractors of all sorts as well. Compare it to pre-vietnam-war activity: no bond drive…

Sure, we're not rationing food and supplies, but I'd argue that many people think there is an existential threat that needs combating. The war on terror, which you mentioned, can be viewed as another front to the war in Iraq/Afghanistan (or vice versa), and I think you'll find that many people in the US view them as directly related. The threat a lot of people perceive is from "terrorists" or "Islam" or even just "mi…

Which brings this full circle: a state of lowgrade permanent fear is created and maintained through jingoistic propaganda in order to control the populace and keep the money flowing with minimal dissent. Since the US doesn't face an existential terrorism threat (compared even to the 70s), the idea of a few have been created -- and are just remote enough that people will be afraid but not ask questions.

Jeez reading that over I sound like a conspiracy theorist. But it in fact is straight out of the playbook.

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