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I'm not a Woman in Tech

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Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#381

Post by nnfy »

fruzz wrote: post #14

There's sexism in tech, and to address it you have to call it for what it is. I'm glad her experiences are such that she hasn't encountered these barriers, but other people have, and they need these words and spaces. Take my previous job. Women were objectified on Slack. A woman was groped, though she didn't report it out of concern for the repercussions. In meetings execs, male execs would only address/look at the m…

It is cherry picking to analyze only obstacles faced by women in tech and then conclude that women face extra challenges without even considering that men spend their lifetimes facing predominantly male-unique problems.

The same flawed perspective leads to generalized racism like the now popular opinion that white people should be treated poorly because they all had it easy.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#382

Post by jd75 »

renlo wrote: post #351

My sister was a software engineer. She wasn't ever a part of those women-only developer groups. She just really liked programming. It wasn't a political statement, and I don't think I've ever heard her talk about 'sexism in the workplace' that everyone else seems to love to talk about. She left her engineering job to raise her children. My mother was completely against this move though because my mother (also origina…

Of course your sister should make her own choices, but the pressure on a mom in tech to leave is still absolutely immense. The more of us who tough it out, the better for our daughters.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#383

Post by jackmott »

eeeeeeeeeeeee wrote: post #258
iamatworknow wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point of the article. It's not that these things don't exist, or didn't exist for her -- of course they do. The point seems, to me at least, to be that in order to attempt to actually solve these problems you can't actively (or passively) try to exclude yourself from the people causing them. It's like politics -- if you separate yourself into "us" versus "them", how are you ever supposed to…

Different and opposing groups work together to find a common solution all the time. You can be different and work in a group and it not be antagonistic. This "us v. them" mentality is fostered by people who don't want to contribute with people who are different, they want everyone to assimilate into "their way." Take the "black lives matter" movement. If we followed the OPs advice, they should just protest that "all…

>Take the "black lives matter" movement. If we followed the OPs advice, they should just protest that "all lives matter" instead,

That might have been more effective, even if it isn't as fair or correct.

Hard to say, but in the lead up to the the latest US presidential election, there were many movements that I absolutely agreed with that I wish had shut up for just 1 year, because I could seem them fueling resentment on 'the other side' much more than energizing their own side. The rural side of my family was in the middle of being completely out of their minds over having a black president and gay marriage made legal when media started pushing for black lives matter and transgenders in bathrooms. They revolted, and now we have a moron as a president. "Deepened the divide" indeed.

This may be an evolution in my own thinking, that there can be more important things than being "right". Think long term.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#384

Post by and0 »

Klockan wrote: post #370
bbulkow wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point of the discussion. When you have women who are excluded and hit on and passed over simply because they are women, they come up with all kinds of solutions, including raising awareness that there are great women who are WOMEN and you should listen to "women in tech". The stage of creating women-only and women-focused groups ( and buying into the diminutive labeling the original author…

Is there any evidence that these movements actually get any results? To me it just seems like tokenism.

Did you even try looking before asking this? I can think of a bunch in just the couple months, mainly in regards to Uber and other SV companies taking concrete steps to fix their culture.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#385

Post by nql »

agentultra wrote: post #344
iamatworknow wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point of the article. It's not that these things don't exist, or didn't exist for her -- of course they do. The point seems, to me at least, to be that in order to attempt to actually solve these problems you can't actively (or passively) try to exclude yourself from the people causing them. It's like politics -- if you separate yourself into "us" versus "them", how are you ever supposed to…

> It's like politics -- if you separate yourself into "us" versus "them", how are you ever supposed to work together to find a solution? It's not like that at all. Ideologies exist on a spectrum. And there are some on the extreme ends that are so reprehensible that there's no good reason to find a way to include them in any reasonable dialog. I don't care how hurt someone feels if they can't find a safe space to talk…

It seems like the brunt of your statement is that we should be fighting human nature itself. No wonder the problems seem so unapproachable. If you don't want to discuss reality, that is fine, but you lose the moral and intellectual high ground that you seem to think you so unquestionably have.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#386

Post by falsedan »

fav_collector wrote: post #335
falsedan wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a company should be focused on acquiring the best developers they can, not finding ones of a specific gender I agree, that's why I think companies should consider what is putting off women & why the gender balance in tech is so heavily weighted towards males. That is, most companies (regardless of conscious choice) are finding the best (young, white) male developers only.

> That is, most companies (regardless of conscious choice) are finding the best (young, white) male developers only. The implication here is that earned (through training) software and programming skills are equally distributed among the entire population. This is simply not true just by looking at StackOverflow/CS major demographics. They are finding the best female developers. There just aren't that many (for whate…

> They are finding the best female developers. There just aren't that many (for whatever reason)

This sounds like you think companies don't have an obligation to improve their environments so that women feel included. Consider a developer that you would say is among the best: would she accept a position at your company? Why not?

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#387

Post by [deleted] »

splintercell wrote: post #56
projectramo wrote: post #16

Okay, so here is the thing: nobody wants to make the labels explicit, or to think about the minority or female labels. The reason that has come into style is because people have implicit associations and biases. And the theory is the best way to deal with them is to explicitly think about it. Example. You're hiring for a position. It is very technical. You see a bunch of candidates and then you just think some would…

> It would be better to read the resume without the gender clues. (Names removed, sorority and fraternity info removed, women organization removed etc) But without that I think we make it explicit just so we have a shot at examining the things we don't make explicit. > That is the theory, anyway. Recent studies[1] contradict your theory. 1. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-30/bilnd-recruitment-tria...

[deleted]

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#388

Post by atmosx »

fruzz wrote: post #14

There's sexism in tech, and to address it you have to call it for what it is. I'm glad her experiences are such that she hasn't encountered these barriers, but other people have, and they need these words and spaces. Take my previous job. Women were objectified on Slack. A woman was groped, though she didn't report it out of concern for the repercussions. In meetings execs, male execs would only address/look at the m…

> I've mentored young women in high school interested in STEM in a program specific for them. The content is the same, but there's value in having these to counter the obstacles specific to women that they'll face.

Taking for granted a priori that this group will face obstacles isn't exactly what this post is about?!?

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#389

Post by rectang »

jackmott wrote: post #383
eeeeeeeeeeeee wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different and opposing groups work together to find a common solution all the time. You can be different and work in a group and it not be antagonistic. This "us v. them" mentality is fostered by people who don't want to contribute with people who are different, they want everyone to assimilate into "their way." Take the "black lives matter" movement. If we followed the OPs advice, they should just protest that "all…

>Take the "black lives matter" movement. If we followed the OPs advice, they should just protest that "all lives matter" instead, That might have been more effective, even if it isn't as fair or correct. Hard to say, but in the lead up to the the latest US presidential election, there were many movements that I absolutely agreed with that I wish had shut up for just 1 year, because I could seem them fueling resentmen…

The Civil War begat the Reconstruction. Two steps forward, one step back.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#390

Post by [deleted] »

kybernetikos wrote: post #298
zzalpha wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that for any specific individual, focussing on the things holding them back is usually counter productive. So what is the alternative? To sit back and hope the problem solves itself? Yes, obviously using minority status as a mental excuse for under-performing is a bad strategy. But I'd claim it's no better to simply ignore the issue. In reality, for a person in a minority group, success is a function o…

I realise that by starting by saying that everyone is held back by something I probably sound dismissive to the people who have to contend with dramatically more than others who are held back by less. I apologise for that. Almost everyone can find factors outside themselves that make their lives harder but some are much more serious and pervasive than others. As to the alternative? I think that attempting to achieve…

[deleted]
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