Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I'm not a Woman in Tech

communequation.wordpress.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

311–320 of 621 posts

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#311

Post by ericmo »

aphextron wrote: post #2

>I want inclusivity, not exclusivity. Thank you. I find myself feeling the exact same way as a black man in this industry, and cringe at "minority only" events and clubs. We don't need token inclusion and separate praise for being "brave" and "fighting against the odds". We need a world where those things are irrelevant.

The point of exclusivity is creating a safe space for women; for men most spaces are safe spaces - I can assert that as a male.

It doesn't mean, though, that we can deal with toxic masculinity without men being involved. I do remember seeing some serious effort within Thoughtworks (and I haven't even worked there) to discuss gender issues without excluding men, so it's not a impossible thing.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#312

Post by illumin8 »

contenttypegeek wrote: post #67

Well said! I wish more people would think the same way. I'm a long-time (10 years+), digital nomad. My younger daughter (currently 6) grew up mostly in Southeast Asia, but also in Europe and to a certain extent, all over the place (we have been traveling a lot (duh)). It's interesting to observe that she has absolutely no concept of minority labels - for her, a Thai Muslim, a Balinese Hindu, an African-American class…

Humans have become very good at building in/out social groups. We even did it when we lived in small villages of homogenous skin colors. I admire what you're trying to do, but pretending that human nature is different than it has been for thousands of years is likely to leave you disappointed.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#313

Post by athenot »

ehsanu1 wrote: post #271
BlackjackCF wrote: post #36

As a queer woman in tech... I feel this so much. I don't really know where to sit on this. It's a bit confusing for me. I understand the need for "X minority group in tech" events, I really do. I think it helps newcomers and people who feel like they're at the fringe find a community. At the same time, I DO find it a little weird at times to go to "LGBTQ-only", "Asian-only", or "women-only" events. It just kind of re…

I think the "-only" part is the problem. Marketing and naming events for minority groups is fine, but they would ideally be welcoming of all groups not part of the minority. Now it might still seem slightly funny for any old person to take part in an event called "black girls code", but it's better than excluding them entirely and I'd hope that most such events are inclusive of all groups.

> but it's better than excluding them entirely and I'd hope that most such events are inclusive of all groups

"Most"?

No, the point is for ALL events to be inclusive. Instead of combatting exlusion with isolation, it would be far better to strengthen the message that it really doesn't matter what labels other have put on you: if you have a desire in skill X, then come to this event with other people who are further along and learn from them, irrespective of their label. And conversly, if you are skilled in X, come spread the skill to anyone who's got a desire, irrespective of their label.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#314

Post by coldtea »

fruzz wrote: post #14

There's sexism in tech, and to address it you have to call it for what it is. I'm glad her experiences are such that she hasn't encountered these barriers, but other people have, and they need these words and spaces. Take my previous job. Women were objectified on Slack. A woman was groped, though she didn't report it out of concern for the repercussions. In meetings execs, male execs would only address/look at the m…

>There's sexism in tech, and to address it you have to call it for what it is. I'm glad her experiences are such that she hasn't encountered these barriers, but other people have, and they need these words and spaces.

Or they just need to learn to speak up for themselves?

You are a woman programmer and somebody treats you like a jerk?

Do the same that a man programmer would do if somebody picked on them.

Why the need for some different behavior, special groups etc? I think they mainly exist so that their leaders have careers, a voice in the media, etc.

The boss excuses them?

Call the boss on it.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#315

Post by root_axis »

mpweiher wrote: post #310
root_axis wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's free-speech. Person A freely makes a statement and anyone else can freely respond to it. That's the ideal that everyone envisions and it's also the reality on the ground.

Er...not really, no. Some speech is freer than others. I already posted the link earlier, but here it goes again: https://heterodoxacademy.org/2015/11/24/the-yale-problem-beg...

I read the link. Please elaborate on how this demonstrates that "some speech is freer than others"?

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#316

Post by iza »

falsedan wrote: post #21
076ae80a-3c97-4 wrote: post #3

I really agree with this. It has always disturbed me when a push for female developers is mentioned; a company should be focused on acquiring the best developers they can, not finding ones of a specific gender. This behaviour is literally an example of the problem it is trying to resolve. To the company I work for, I am a software engineer, not a man or woman.

> a company should be focused on acquiring the best developers they can, not finding ones of a specific gender I agree, that's why I think companies should consider what is putting off women & why the gender balance in tech is so heavily weighted towards males. That is, most companies (regardless of conscious choice) are finding the best (young, white) male developers only.

> most companies (regardless of conscious choice) are finding the best (young, white) male developers only.

It usually reflects the pool of applicants.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#317

Post by humanrebar »

hoosieree wrote: post #76
serg_chernata wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watching from the sidelines as a white male, I have to say that I find these kinds of situations so confusing. Some people want these differences to be highlighted, while others like yourself want the complete opposite. I'm left believing that my only choice is to have no opinion. Though I lean towards your stance across the board.

I deeply understand this sentiment, especially the "what can/should I do?" aspect, but I think "watching from the sidelines" is a mistake. If we do nothing then the status quo will tend toward more segregation, not less. Some simple things I do to try to make things better in my workplace: With others: * actually listen * never interrupt * make sure criticism is constructive * in a shared codebase, use the lightest p…

> acknowledge my own privileges/biases

I'm fine with acknowledging my shortcomings. I think it shows a healthy humility and a kind of leadership that is really lacking these days.

But I find the language of privilege to be a certain kind of virtue signalling. I don't ascribe to the underlying philosophy, so I would be misleading my audience to talk about my "privileges".

> the fact that simply what I look like/how I speak etc. can affect other people

That can describe really bad, really racist outcomes. It's not fair, at least in the Rawlsian sense, to make people responsible for how others react to who they are.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#318

Post by Dove »

fruzz wrote: post #14

There's sexism in tech, and to address it you have to call it for what it is. I'm glad her experiences are such that she hasn't encountered these barriers, but other people have, and they need these words and spaces. Take my previous job. Women were objectified on Slack. A woman was groped, though she didn't report it out of concern for the repercussions. In meetings execs, male execs would only address/look at the m…

> but as a group, it's undeniable that there's extra obstacles

I'm not sure you can really say that. It's true, women as a group encounter problems with being treated as sex objects, and there are cultural reasons for that, blah blah blah. So women have a unique experience. BUT! Men experience a pressure to succeed that we as women can hardly fathom. Consequently, they wind up in jobs they need, in a way we never will, which opens them up for a different kind of abuse in the workplace. Men experience such pressure to succeed that they sacrifice their health and well-being, sometimes their life, in the effort to succeed, and that seems pretty terrible. And there are cultural reasons for that and blah blah blah.

I really don't think it's useful to try to calculate who has it worse. Workplace abuse is bad. Let's oppose it. Sexual harassment is bad. Let's oppose it. Which is worse? Who cares? They're kind of incomparable anyway. Let's not waste time on that. Let's all agree to oppose these things and help those who suffer!

I'm not saying opposing sexual harassment is a waste of time. That's absolutely a good thing to do. And I'm not saying women as a group don't have a specific set of issues and problems it makes sense to address as a set. I think sometimes they do. But I am saying focusing on that and saying, "and therefore WOMEN HAVE PROBLEMS AND MEN DON'T" is a bit myopic, and I don't really think it helps either of us.

We've all got problems, some of our own making, some due to family or history, or . . . sometimes we just randomly walk into someone else's problems. People have genetic diseases. People have deformities. People have nutritional problems and religious obligations and sick relatives. And people overcome these things because they're AMAZING! Let us not bother keeping score. Let us be compassionate and kind and support those we see in trouble. Let us expect, without exception, that everyone will be treated well.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#319

Post by fav_collector »

Latty wrote: post #91
aphextron wrote: post #2

>I want inclusivity, not exclusivity. Thank you. I find myself feeling the exact same way as a black man in this industry, and cringe at "minority only" events and clubs. We don't need token inclusion and separate praise for being "brave" and "fighting against the odds". We need a world where those things are irrelevant.

That seems a short-sighted way to look at it. Yes, of course in an ideal world these things would be non-issues, but they aren't. People are discriminated against, and there are barriers from culture that won't change without intentional scruity. Of course, everyone should be able to just do their job and no more. If you aren't interested in being a role model or trying to push for that equality, that's absolutely fi…

The problem is that the strategies used to "fix" the original, supposed discrimination are sins by themselves. Affirmative action is plain racism/sexism without the history aspect.

There is no quantification (or even validation really) of the supposed discrimination. People don't look bother trying to figure out what actions would make the scale equal. They are completely concentrated on moving the scale in one direction only and never check the balancing.

People must believe that there is discrimination is always so severe that any necessary evil used to balance it out is justified.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#320

Post by tepidandroid »

Just want to thank the author of the blog post as well as the more level-headed engineers (black, white, female, male, whatever) who commented in this thread.

I feel like i've been slowly losing my mind with the constant oversensitive rhetoric and white-knighting taking over every aspect of life and the workplace. Of all fields, engineering was supposed to be about merit. I would say that in the modern day and age, the vast majority of company cultures integrate employees just fine and don't give a damn about the colour of your skin or your sexual orientation. And you know what? I think that's the way it should be.

Enough with the hand holding and mollycoddling. It only serves to demean the efforts and accomplishments of those who don't need or want it.

Post reply on HN