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EU Parliament calls for longer lifetime for products

eubusiness.com

101–110 of 241 posts

Re: EU Parliament calls for longer lifetime for products

#101
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A law requiring a particular material? Unless it’s health or safety related, no way. The last place I want to see government is regulating how a product must be constructed (unless it’s health or safety critical obviously.) If you want a device without plastic screw holes, pay more money and find one or make one yourself, market it and sell it to other like-minded people. If I have a toaster that breaks, the time it…

The electronics could have a 'repairability' rating similar to energy-efficiency one. Otherwise there is no feasible way to know what's the build quality before opening it yourself.

Generalising and mandating some sort of 'star rating' + notes along the lines of the ifixit Repairability Score[1] system would be a good first step.

AIUI, for products marketed in the US there are often internal photographs & other documentation (e.g, a totally random example product I found with one of the FCC ID search engines: https://fccid.io/2AMOCKST-900)

Having some semi-standardised set of robustness and repairability criteria and requiring that businesses publish an evaluation of their products against the criteria would at least allow people to get some idea of the 'build quality' or other potential decisionmaking info before buying.

Of course, it would be easy for unscrupulous product manufacturers to find ways to game the evaluations, or just outright lie, so you need some teeth to the rules if caught.

And on the other hand, you're imposing further regulatory burdens on those producing new products, increasing costs and maybe time to market. So there are definitely downsides.

Balancing everything and making it useful without being burdensome is the real problem.

As an afterthought, even if you look inside one instance of a product, there isn't any degree of certainty that if you buy an (externally) identical, matching model number/SKU, it will be the same.

Some regulatory system that actually required version-numbering, or different model-numbering on non-trivial changes would be useful, especially if combined with some obligation to record/announce those version releases, maybe even with some actual change notes.

[1] https://www.ifixit.com/smartphone-repairability

Re: EU Parliament calls for longer lifetime for products

#102

paradoxically we want longer lifetime for some products but not for IE 6, Windows XP, JDK 1 , name your product's support hell...

Arguably, Windows XP had an incredibly long lifetime (12 years!) in terms of actual support/updates. The problem is getting people to leave after that lifetime is over . If something is going to get updates for twelve years, there's no problem with people continuing to use it.

XP is still used in all sorts of (theoretically) non-networked applications.

Re: EU Parliament calls for longer lifetime for products

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A repair job still involves a purchase, but from a parts dealer or repair man.

This is true, but should still result in lower TCO. Lower TCO means lower velocity of money.

OK, but why should we consider the economic concept of money changing hands more rapidly to be an inherently good thing?

There are both environmental and quality of life issues with the way our culture has evolved recently, particularly around advancing consumer technologies, which aren't (directly) financial in nature but are definitely things we could change for the better. Meanwhile, the increases in money moving around on paper are mostly in the direction of manufacturers taking advantage of consumers one way or another, and I don't have a problem with damaging that effect in favour of the others.

Re: EU Parliament calls for longer lifetime for products

#104

Not to play the free market card too aggressively, but isn't there already a solution to this, called "extended warranties"? Whether provided by the manufacturer or from the retail seller, they provide a way for customers to pay an extra fee in order to extend the product's lifetime. In theory, they even give a way to price out the effective longevity of comparable devices by looking at the prices of the warranties.…

David Harum.

It's a race to the bottom without standards enforcement.

Also Market for Lemons: good product is driven out.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Harum

Re: EU Parliament calls for longer lifetime for products

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Purchasing power has gone up for those who can take advantage of cheap goods, but as your question insinuates, wages have not gone up; they've been stagnant for decades.

But is that true? Since real estate and renting costs have increased over 400% in some big cities, do cheaper goods offset that big slice of disposable income which pays for that? Is there some overall statistic done to include all these costs and calculate whether purchasing power has really gone up?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol%27s_cost_disease

Productivity has risen in manufacturing, tech, and automation. This provides a moderate wage increase in those jobs, but a sharp drop in employment as well. Meanwhile, you also get a similar competitive wage increase in essential service industries (health care, education, construction), but because those sectors have experienced no increase in productivity, this is reflected in the price others pay for those goods, not in the employment figures for them. The drop in employment in high-productivity sectors then forces laid off workers into marginal service-sector employment.

Because of Simpson's Paradox [1], this results in flat or declining wage statistics across the whole economy, but the statistics obscure a lot of detail. Nurses, therapists, teachers, et al are doing okay; they're not going to get rich, and the rising cost of housing in some metro areas means that if they don't already own their house they may need to move far away, but their relative wages are keeping pace. Same with the few remaining union jobs: unionized longshoremen at the Port of Oakland make mid six-figures, as much as a software engineer at a startup. But employment in those fields is dropping, because of productivity increases, and everyone who is displaced out of them needs to find employment in the undifferentiated service sector, usually at much lower wages. And the people who actually provide the automation support that's driving this productivity growth are making out like bandits: that's where you see all the new millionaires being minted.

This'll continue until either society breaks down and goes to war or a bunch of new industries spring up and absorb all the new workers, who then differentiate their skillsets and bargain for higher pay. Both of these happened last time this occurred, in the early 1900s; the world wars were the springboard that drove adoption of new technologies like automobiles and airplanes. We see some possible beginnings of this with things like ridesharing and delivery startups, but it seems unlikely these are the big industries of the 21st century. More likely, they're transient uses for large crowds of unemployed people, and the real 21st century industries will be the micromarket: individual entrepreneurs that are each specialized in reaching & designing for a small group of customers, using home manufacturing & automated shipping tools that are in their infancy now.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox

Re: EU Parliament calls for longer lifetime for products

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Car radios are (or at least, were 10 years ago) easy for even a DIYer to replace with about an hour's labor. Even in modern cars with nonstandard radios they're still modular . You can take it out and replace it with a functioning one. The GP's issue isn't that he needed a technician to take apart the radio and install a new screen, he just needed a new radio. Which was his eventual solution.

Add to automation in car manufacturing the logistics. The chain of supply of cars is efficient due to high volumes, predictability and competition. The chain of supply for spare parts (like radio modules) is low volume, unpredictable and does not attract competition. Thus, fixing a car radio may seem prohibitively expensive when compared to the price of the car. If you do it yourself, it's cheaper, but the insurance…

> Thus, fixing a car radio may seem prohibitively expensive when compared to the price of the car.

It's very easy to add together a few repairs which sum to more than the value of the car. If you wanted to get a new car from scratch by ordering the individual components and having your dealership put them together, it would have to be at least 10x more expensive than buying one produced at scale.

> If you do it yourself, it's cheaper, but the insurance company won't pay for it.

On the one hand, you have the value of your time in your skill area, versus mucking about with a radio. On the other, you have the overhead and inefficiency of a huge dealer/insurance system. Somewhere in the middle is your local mechanic :) Find a good one and make friends - you don't have to go to the dealership!

Re: EU Parliament calls for longer lifetime for products

#107
post #3

The article says that consumers are discouraged by the cost of repair. A few weeks ago, I repaired an eltronical appliance and was surprised to see that all screws were screwed into plastic. As I unscrewed them to access the inside of the device, the plastic around the screw broke. I think there should be laws that prevent screwing into plastic. That just makes no sense appart from upfront cost. Once the plastic is b…

A law requiring a particular material? Unless it’s health or safety related, no way. The last place I want to see government is regulating how a product must be constructed (unless it’s health or safety critical obviously.) If you want a device without plastic screw holes, pay more money and find one or make one yourself, market it and sell it to other like-minded people. If I have a toaster that breaks, the time it…

>Perhaps if government lowered taxes and relaxed the labor code

Oh, Brian, we meet again, and we disagree once again. Taxes and the labor code are not what is making things expensive.

- The labor code is not even close to being the one reason companies do not hire : https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/2871900?sommaire=287202...

- Countless fiscal advantages have already been given and tried, effectively the same thing as lowering taxes on companies. That includes the CIE, CICE, CIR, the reduction of TVA in restaurants, fiscal benefits for life insurance holders, lowering the ISS to 34.6%, removing taxes on plus-value, the globalised worldwide profits regime, and the countless things that can be listed here : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niche_fiscale

All of these happened, and the costs have not changed. Some of them were given in exchange of promise of jobs (the change of TVA in restaurants being one of the most notable), and none happened. Profits went up, though.

I would rather have microwave repair costs go up to 80€ than lower our living standards.

>I certainly wouldn’t be happy if I had to pay several hundred euros more for a microwave because of a law mandating the type of screw holes that must be used.

hyperbole.txt

Re: EU Parliament calls for longer lifetime for products

#108
I agree with this too. I always try to repair things first and then replace them if necessary (even if it is a torn shirt or backpack, a broken zipper on a shoe or broken connector on a laptop).

Also, I try to buy things which are durable, but a lot of times it is hard to tell what will be durable so I go with the pricier option hoping it will last longer. This is not always true, especially for shoes and clothing, but in electronics too. The problem is when someone looks for reviews, they only find reviews of new models, but there's no website which would say this product can be used for X years without breaking. Do you guys know about such a site? Or something similar? I am always thinking about starting such website, which would provide reviews for older things, so there would be chronological ratings and we would see which brands make quality products and which of them not. ...but that would need a lot of input data to be useful and I am not sure how could this be started. Or even if this would be useful for others or only I am concerned with this.

What do you guys think about this?

Re: EU Parliament calls for longer lifetime for products

#109
post #69
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does regulation solve the issue that replacing e.g. the touch screen may take many man hours of labor, whereas making the car itself took proportionally less, thus making replacements more expensive? Your experience is a symptom of a high degree of automation in one area (car manufacturing) and the absence in another (repairs), and regulation does not change that.

This is the fundamental issue, yes. Some thoughts: A large part of the discrepancy is not automation, but cheap labour in the East where many of our products are made. Regulation can help redress than inequality. Repair is so expensive because it's made to be. It shouldn't take several hours of skilled labour to replace an easily broken component like a touchscreen - it should be snap-in. Regulation can address that…

> Repair is so expensive because it's made to be. It shouldn't take several hours of skilled labour to replace an easily broken component like a touchscreen - it should be snap-in. Regulation can address that by mandating reparability.

Which can increase the original cost of the good.

Re: EU Parliament calls for longer lifetime for products

#110

I agree with this too. I always try to repair things first and then replace them if necessary (even if it is a torn shirt or backpack, a broken zipper on a shoe or broken connector on a laptop). Also, I try to buy things which are durable, but a lot of times it is hard to tell what will be durable so I go with the pricier option hoping it will last longer. This is not always true, especially for shoes and clothing, b…

Sounds like you’re looking for https://www.reddit.com/r/BuyItForLife/
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