I'm not a Woman in Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#281

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 5:27 PM UTC

andrewmutz wrote: post #277

matt_wulfeck wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because if I learned anything, anything you say can and most likely probably will be used against you. Even right now, writing on a niche message board using a fake name, I'm hesitant to voice my honest opinions about anything related to race or gender or other topic like that. it's like there's an army of internet people waiting for you to mess up and will punish you with controversy and/or honestly try and get yo…

I agree 100%. There is no serious dialog on complex issues like this, because if something you say gets misunderstood, your career is in jeopardy.

[deleted]

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#282

Post by swampangel » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 5:29 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #239

swampangel wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were white in 60's America, you didn't have to check ahead of time if a given restaurant would serve you food. If you're white now, you still don't have to check. If you're not white, things are different. Can you think of some examples of when you were unexpectedly forbidden from participating in an event/group/etc? Did you have access to alternatives?

The 1960s were 50 years ago. You won't experience that today (with very rare exceptions), and that's a good thing. But we can't be forever fixated on things that we've moved past.

1. The purpose was to illustrate the difference between white-only discrimination (the origin of our current discrimination laws) and modern exclusive group events.

2. There are lots of people who lived through the Civil Rights movement alive today, and segregation and the associated attitudes didn't disappear overnight. Do you think 70 year old politicians carry no baggage from their upbringing and early adulthood?

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#283

Post by ithilglin909 » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 5:29 PM UTC

Yes, yes, and yes. I'm a woman and a also pretty damn good software engineer. It drives me crazy that nearly every time I tell people what I do they want to ask me about my experiences of sexism at work (I've never experienced that in a significant way). I hate that HR people constantly want to talk to me about how supportive they are.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#284

Post by eeeeeeeeeeeee » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 5:35 PM UTC

paperpunk wrote: post #38

She makes a good point when she says "I’m already here, people. So I’m not the problem you’re trying to solve." I think what a lot of these kinds of posts miss is that efforts to bring women into tech generally aren't aimed at the kind of women who have always done tech, have always wanted to do tech, and participate in the tech community despite their gender. Those women are the die-hards who largely will ignore gen…

I don't consider getting women into tech as the only problem facing our industry. Because once they get in, a lot of them face abuse.

Nobody is saying you should get special treatment. Only that we need to acknowledge and label a problem in order for it to have visibility so we can make the problem better.

She also says:

"I also wish gay rights == human rights. If you throw a parade celebrating women who did awesome shit in STEMM and invite the world to join, I’m in and I’m bringing pom-poms!)"

So, wouldn't you take this as saying that the gay rights movement should change their entire PR to advance "human rights" and not gay rights? How do you solve a problem and market a problem without actually calling it out?

This all feels like she is reading too much into a label.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#285

Post by monocasa » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 5:35 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #280

monocasa wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I grew up in an affluent suburb of Atlanta. If you had a Kerry sticker on your car in the high school parking lot, there was a squad of kids that would break your windows, slash your tires, and key your car. The school had cameras, but refused to investigate the matter. I had friend who was gay, and after he got off the bus one day, all of the kids on that side of the bus threw rocks at him. He was in a coma fo…

In modern day Atlanta there is widespread stoning of gays? I find this a bit hard to believe.

Cobb County is way more red than most of Atlanta.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#286

Post by macns » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 5:37 PM UTC

serg_chernata wrote: post #4

aphextron wrote: post #2

>I want inclusivity, not exclusivity. Thank you. I find myself feeling the exact same way as a black man in this industry, and cringe at "minority only" events and clubs. We don't need token inclusion and separate praise for being "brave" and "fighting against the odds". We need a world where those things are irrelevant.

Watching from the sidelines as a white male, I have to say that I find these kinds of situations so confusing. Some people want these differences to be highlighted, while others like yourself want the complete opposite. I'm left believing that my only choice is to have no opinion. Though I lean towards your stance across the board.

[..] I find these kinds of situations so confusing. Some people want these differences to be highlighted, while others like yourself want the complete opposite. I'm left believing that my only choice is to have no opinion.

The post and the parent comment show that this is not a matter of opinion, not a matter to be confused of; we're all human, nothing more, nothing less. Keeping this in mind will clear things up for everyone eventually.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#287

Post by scruple » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 5:39 PM UTC

matt_wulfeck wrote: post #203

treehau5 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm left believing that my only choice is to have no opinion. I learned this lesson a long time ago from the role models in my life that ended up getting burned because of having a differing viewpoint from whatever societal winds were blowing. I, and I realize probably cynically, now only elect to share, post, tweet, or whatnot whatever only can positively benefit my "brand". Sometimes I have to act like my own PR…

> because if I learned anything, anything you say can and most likely probably will be used against you. Even right now, writing on a niche message board using a fake name, I'm hesitant to voice my honest opinions about anything related to race or gender or other topic like that. it's like there's an army of internet people waiting for you to mess up and will punish you with controversy and/or honestly try and get yo…

Absolutely. 9/10 of the comments that I write on HN never see the light of day. And not just on HN, but pretty much every social media platform I engage with.

I don't feel like I have anything particularly controversial, inflammatory, or offensive to say. But, I so strongly don't want to be perceived that way that I just opt-out most of the time.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#288

Post by colept » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 5:40 PM UTC

buf wrote: post #7

Unpopular opinion: I think when you're in a minority and you are not rising to the top as fast as you expect, you use your minority as leverage to propel yourself. I am also in a minority. I've often felt cheated that my career isn't Musk-esque. And sometimes I even ask the question, "Am I being held back because I'm [in my minority]?" Then I snap back to reality. It's not the minority that holds you back. It's a cla…

I'm glad this was said because I think there's a spotlight on "women in tech" right now and all that's being said is how hard it is to be a woman. Yes there is a glass ceiling in tech for women but consider how easy it is for women to get to that ceiling versus being a man.

Given the previous study that said companies more likely hire men when names are removed from an application - it makes me curious about what it would be like to be a woman in tech. Would I get more interviews? Would my blog posts and tweets get shared more because women get better exposition in the developer communities?

Women have to try hard to break that ceiling, but men have to try harder to get there. Being in a minority puts you in a spotlight - people pay attention to you.

That doesn't make discrimination or sexual harassment okay and I'm not saying women should count their chickens but I can't help but feel numb to some of the noise that surrounds this issue.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#289

Post by mistermann » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 5:41 PM UTC

monocasa wrote: post #285

mistermann wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In modern day Atlanta there is widespread stoning of gays? I find this a bit hard to believe.

Cobb County is way more red than most of Atlanta.

Is there widespread stoning of gays? One would think in the year 2017 this might make the news, or at least YouTube or Reddit.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#290

Post by hyperdunc » Wed, Jul 05, 2017, 5:43 PM UTC

BearGoesChirp wrote: post #40

projectramo wrote: post #16

Okay, so here is the thing: nobody wants to make the labels explicit, or to think about the minority or female labels. The reason that has come into style is because people have implicit associations and biases. And the theory is the best way to deal with them is to explicitly think about it. Example. You're hiring for a position. It is very technical. You see a bunch of candidates and then you just think some would…

>Now you reread the resume only focusing on the actual skills and you find that some of the people you rejected have stronger technical skills but you unconsciously downplayed it because of the female name. Wasn't there a recent study that removing names led to the percentage of men being interviewed increasing?

A recent study of hiring practises by the government in Victoria, Australia, found that there was actually a bias towards hiring females when gender cues were removed. One of the conclusions was that they should stop removing gender cues because removing them decreased diversity.