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I'm not a Woman in Tech

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Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#271

Post by ehsanu1 »

BlackjackCF wrote: post #36

As a queer woman in tech... I feel this so much. I don't really know where to sit on this. It's a bit confusing for me. I understand the need for "X minority group in tech" events, I really do. I think it helps newcomers and people who feel like they're at the fringe find a community. At the same time, I DO find it a little weird at times to go to "LGBTQ-only", "Asian-only", or "women-only" events. It just kind of re…

I think the "-only" part is the problem. Marketing and naming events for minority groups is fine, but they would ideally be welcoming of all groups not part of the minority. Now it might still seem slightly funny for any old person to take part in an event called "black girls code", but it's better than excluding them entirely and I'd hope that most such events are inclusive of all groups.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#272

Post by monocasa »

mistermann wrote: post #259
Latty wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> True, but socially, we've moved past that. There might be the rare individual baker who would not want to bake a cake for a gay wedding, because he's a devout Christian or Muslim or whatever and thinks homosexuality is a sin. But 98% of businesses won't care, as long as you can pay the bill. Untrue. There are still many communities where you can be totally ostracized for those things. Just because you don't notice…

> Untrue. There are still many communities where you can be totally ostracized for those things. Could you name a two or three so we have some idea what you're talking about?

Sure, I grew up in an affluent suburb of Atlanta.

If you had a Kerry sticker on your car in the high school parking lot, there was a squad of kids that would break your windows, slash your tires, and key your car. The school had cameras, but refused to investigate the matter.

I had friend who was gay, and after he got off the bus one day, all of the kids on that side of the bus threw rocks at him. He was in a coma for a few days.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#273

Post by mirimir »

vxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote: post #193
serg_chernata wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watching from the sidelines as a white male, I have to say that I find these kinds of situations so confusing. Some people want these differences to be highlighted, while others like yourself want the complete opposite. I'm left believing that my only choice is to have no opinion. Though I lean towards your stance across the board.

As a fresh US immigrant from the middle of Europe yet visually passing as an average white man, I haven't even shared the style of upbringing that people assume I did, and yet I lean closer to the opinion expressed above because I fear that a determined person with an agenda can find a way to use my story or opinions to illustrate their point and paint me and broad classes of people as problematic in the process. I e…

You could create an online persona to have those "tough conversations". And use VPN services and/or Tor to keep it isolated from your real-world identity.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#274

Post by falsedan »

amiga-workbench wrote: post #164
falsedan wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a company should be focused on acquiring the best developers they can, not finding ones of a specific gender I agree, that's why I think companies should consider what is putting off women & why the gender balance in tech is so heavily weighted towards males. That is, most companies (regardless of conscious choice) are finding the best (young, white) male developers only.

I don't think the fault lies at the employment level. I think the societal biases are imprinted in people during their social development. Girls are less likely to be given the equipment and backing to get into software development at an early age, and their peers would rarely understand such an interest. The field and the associated character traits around it are viewed as nerdy or boring, the people who don't give…

> I don't think the fault lies at the employment level.

I think companies can take steps to improve outreach to excluded groups, and set up policies to help reduce exclusionary behaviour in the workplace. I don't really care if it's their fault or not.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#275

Post by dang »

peterwwillis wrote: post #156
dang wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's definitely not always true and probably not in the majority case either. Please don't escalate a discussion like this straight into political battle—we want interesting, thoughtful conversation here and the two aren't compatible. We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14702833 and marked it off-topic.

I think the decision to detach the comment was overzealous. A reply to that comment on that thread would have been a great opportunity to provide an informed opposing view, and now it'll be stuck down in the cheap seats where people involved in the original discussion won't benefit. The idea of a political activist isn't divisive, it's a core feature of all politics. Every single person engaged in politics does so to…

Maybe it was a notch too much. Moderation is guesswork. Fortunately there's plenty of opportunity for people to substantively discuss that aspect and many others.

Re your last paragraph: neither HN, nor HN moderation, nor the organization that runs HN, work the way you describe. Just to pick a couple examples, the threads are sensitive to initial conditions, and no one at YC has told me how to moderate. HN users more than make up for it though!

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#276

Post by akatechis »

delecti wrote: post #189
serg_chernata wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watching from the sidelines as a white male, I have to say that I find these kinds of situations so confusing. Some people want these differences to be highlighted, while others like yourself want the complete opposite. I'm left believing that my only choice is to have no opinion. Though I lean towards your stance across the board.

I don't see their preferences as necessarily conflicting from your point of view. Some people of various groups want the ability to have events of their own, and others want to be included in non-restrictive coding events. Allow/encourage both. Don't fight back against "Women Who Code" events, and be welcoming and polite to women at non-restrictive coding events. You don't need to have a stance on which is better, an…

Why would a white or men exclusive event be trouble? Are white men the tainted scourge of the world?

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#277

Post by andrewmutz »

matt_wulfeck wrote: post #203
treehau5 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm left believing that my only choice is to have no opinion. I learned this lesson a long time ago from the role models in my life that ended up getting burned because of having a differing viewpoint from whatever societal winds were blowing. I, and I realize probably cynically, now only elect to share, post, tweet, or whatnot whatever only can positively benefit my "brand". Sometimes I have to act like my own PR…

> because if I learned anything, anything you say can and most likely probably will be used against you. Even right now, writing on a niche message board using a fake name, I'm hesitant to voice my honest opinions about anything related to race or gender or other topic like that. it's like there's an army of internet people waiting for you to mess up and will punish you with controversy and/or honestly try and get yo…

I agree 100%.

There is no serious dialog on complex issues like this, because if something you say gets misunderstood, your career is in jeopardy.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#278

Post by pj_mukh »

" Or that twice as many women quit the high tech industry as men?" .... I’m already here, people. So I’m not the problem you’re trying to solve."

This seems contradictory, women leaving tech is one of the biggest problems, so even if she is already in tech keeping her because she is a woman is still a concern.

Its great that she likes to play Diablo II and be one with the boys, but a lot of women don't but that doesn't make them bad tech workers. That is the crux of the problem. The insidious cultural requirements that no one has on paper, but everyone intangibly enforces.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#279

Post by Retric »

imjlu wrote: post #235
djsumdog wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It kinda makes me thing of the "Millennials Don't Exist" talk by Adam Conover. He talks about how generational terms are just made up by authors who want to get rich and they're almost always condescending (those entitled baby boomers, those lazy millennials, those gen x-ers) and how people don't liked to be talked down to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HFwok9SlQQ&t=12s Are millennials attached do their cellphones…

It's almost as if segregation adds unnecessary constraints to the lives of the people involved. You'd think people would have figured this out centuries ago, yet we still self-segregate and divide ourselves wherever possible. Shame.

There is utility in being part of an in group be that people from country X, religion Y, or just credential Z. The trade off is worse global performance, but MBA's networking with other MBA's can be good for people with MBA's and eff anyone else.

On top of that their are cognitive biases like I got an CS degree so getting a CS degree must be a good idea. Therefore I will give preference to others with a CS degree.

PS: Men do face discrimination in female dominated fields, and being white can often hurt your chances for various things. But, while dead weight losses exist the incentives often favor discrimination even if it's called networking.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#280

Post by mistermann »

monocasa wrote: post #272
mistermann wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Untrue. There are still many communities where you can be totally ostracized for those things. Could you name a two or three so we have some idea what you're talking about?

Sure, I grew up in an affluent suburb of Atlanta. If you had a Kerry sticker on your car in the high school parking lot, there was a squad of kids that would break your windows, slash your tires, and key your car. The school had cameras, but refused to investigate the matter. I had friend who was gay, and after he got off the bus one day, all of the kids on that side of the bus threw rocks at him. He was in a coma fo…

In modern day Atlanta there is widespread stoning of gays? I find this a bit hard to believe.
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