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Tesla Model 3 Hits Production

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Re: Tesla Model 3 Hits Production

#161

Post by ams6110 »

Tloewald wrote: post #143
cptskippy wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it depends on the age of your car and how you drive it? I've had 4 Honda Accords from an 88 up to an 07 that all started exhibiting the same engine problems around the 200k mile mark. Blown head gaskets, burning oil, timing belt issues, etc.

I assume you were replacing the timining belts on schedule. Given the near legendary reliability of the Honda Accord it makes me wonder if there's something about the way you drive. Even so, 200,000 miles is not too shabby. I don't think we have useful data on electric vehicles with that kind of mileage.

I have a honda with 226,000 miles. Starts and runs like new.

I have replaced timing belt and water pump and motor mounts in addition to regular fluid changes. The timing belt and water pump work was proactive maintenance (the timing belt drives the water pump so they suggest replacing both at once since it's not really any extra work).

The motor mounts simply wore out. Not expensive to replace. Rubber mounts will wear out on a Tesla too, eventually.

Re: Tesla Model 3 Hits Production

#162

Post by sqeaky »

greenyoda wrote: post #56
imron wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we fire up the dirty, old oil-fired power plants as the generators of last resort. But it's probably still a net win if that extra electricity is going to power electric cars, because a power plant is more efficient than thousands of internal combustion engines. See: https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/06/how-tesla-will-change-your-li...

It's not just a question of thermodynamic efficiency. Cars have emission control systems (catalytic converters, etc.) that mitigate some of the pollutants, and perhaps most importantly, use a much cleaner fuel (the heavy fuel oil burned in power plants produces soot, sulfur compounds, etc. which the more highly refined hydrocarbons in gasoline do not).

I don't think he was talking about thermodynamic efficiency. But filtering efficiency. Filtering one big power plant is easier than filtering many independently owned cars. Also the power plants filter is stationary and the cars filters must move.

Re: Tesla Model 3 Hits Production

#163

Post by Diederich »

Munkum wrote: post #62

There is no way on god's earth that Tesla can ramp up production like that. I suspect the first cars that they sell will roll off the VP tools and not off the main lines anyway. With a lack of product maturation the quality of the first cars will be appalling too. I'd bet that the guys at the coal face are wanting to kill their PR people right now for making promises that they know will get broken. Disclosure: work i…

Disclosure: I've never worked in or around the automotive industry.

The amount of focus and effort Tesla has put toward the tech in the Model 3 pales in comparison to the amount they have put toward factory automation. Musk has said as much in multiple interviews. He's talked about how it's 10x harder to 'build the machines that build the machines'.

See also their acquisition of Grohmann Engineering.

Having said all that, we will have to wait and see. One thing I do know is that Musk's ventures have a long history of surprising the status quo.

Re: Tesla Model 3 Hits Production

#164

Post by eggnet »

woobar wrote: post #140
jdcarr wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only speak for the brakes. Teslas use regenerative braking on the motor before falling back to traditional frictional brake pads as I understand it. Essentially the motor is put in reverse and that drains off speed. That means less wear on the brakes and so they last much, much longer than an ICE car.

My ICE car has regenerative braking. So this is not something exclusive to the EVs.

Regenerative braking only works if there is spare battery capacity to absorb the energy. In general that requires a large battery to be useful. A normal car battery is nowhere near large enough and is generally topped off by the alternator.

My ICE car has regenerative braking as well, but I certainly didn't buy it for that, nor have I been able to discern the impact of it. I have driven EVs before and the regenerative braking is unmistakable.

Re: Tesla Model 3 Hits Production

#165

Post by greglindahl »

Munkum wrote: post #87
taneq wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect the first cars that they sell will roll off the VP tools and not off the main lines anyway. There a story a couple of months ago about the fact that they've saved a lot of time by going straight to the main production lines rather than building a testing line first? Is this a good plan? Time will tell but I'm sure glad I'm not involved. :S Sources: http://www.newsweek.com/tesla-skips-traditional-manufactu…

No, this is not a good plan at all, it's incredibly risky. To get the car all road legal it needs to be crash tested - that is usually what the pre-volume builds are used for. If they fail (and they sometimes do, because you can't do a finite element analysis on an assembly as complex as a car in the variety of scenarios that you would crash test it) then you need to reengineer the car. This usually means panel gauge…

Elon tweeted a couple of days ago that Model 3 had all needed regulatory approvals, so I guess it passed the crash test. I can believe that you know a lot about building cars, but you don't seem to have any actual information about what's going on inside Tesla's Fremont factory.

Re: Tesla Model 3 Hits Production

#166

Post by dpark »

FussyZeus wrote: post #155
chronic6a5 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you drove a Honda like a Ferrari you'd likely break a whole lot of it's "reliable" parts too. You really need to stop drinking the Tesla kool-aid. Of course people drive Honda's like Ferraris. And guess what, the Honda's don't break as easily as the Teslas.

I'm not drinking anybody's kool-aid. If you think a 691 bhp Tesla is going to wear it's parts the same way as a 278 bhp Accord, I have no words for you. That's not even taking into account the much higher acceleration forces, G-forces, etc. that the parts in a Tesla are going to be dealing with, plus the fact that it has a completely different center of gravity and that affects how every component of the suspension w…

> If you think a 691 bhp Tesla is going to wear it's parts the same way as a 278 bhp Accord...

Literally no one said that.

And that wasn't the criticism of your comment. The criticism was that you asserted that Hondas would be as reliable as Ferraris if they were driven hard. Lots of people do drive their Hondas hard. They replace the exhaust and lower the car and maybe throw on a wing and pretend they're on a track all the time. They drive these things hard as hell and they hold up very well.

> I'm not saying Tesla build quality is higher or lower, I'm saying it's comparing apples and oranges.

It's not apples and oranges. It's cars and cars. Yes, people drive their Teslas harder than their Nissan Leafs. What about M5s? How do Teslas compare? They should be far more reliable due to the vastly simpler drivetrain. Are they?

> It's also worth noting that Honda's have decades upon decades of previous models to build off of. Tesla's been around since what, 2003? And they didn't have a car to show until 2008.

So your argument about Tesla reliability is essentially that they are unreliable, because they're new?

Re: Tesla Model 3 Hits Production

#167

Post by dom0 »

FussyZeus wrote: post #106
maxsilver wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because (personal opinion) the Tesla Model S isn't a particularly great car. Their success is largely in marketing, network, and visual appeal, not in the product itself. If you pick a better (albeit less appealing) electric car, the reliability rate skyrockets. For instance, using your own source -- https://www.truedelta.com/Nissan-LEAF-vs-Tesla-Model-S-relia...

^ This. The Model S has a lot more in common with a mid-high range Mercedes or a low end Ferrari. Anybody who owns an exotic car like that will tell you, you do not buy those for the reliability. It's also worth noting the Model S is, and is marketed to the audience for, a performance car. When you put down that kind of money, you're going to drive it like one. If you drove a Honda like a Ferrari you'd likely break a…

A Mercedes limousine is hardly exotic, and neither is it unreliable.

Re: Tesla Model 3 Hits Production

#169

Post by [deleted] »

arethuza wrote: post #86
nradov wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If electric cars are so simple, why is the Tesla Model S so unreliable? https://www.truedelta.com/Tesla-Model-S/reliability-1095 Conversely, the Toyota Prius is one of the most reliable cars. Yet it is mechanically complex with both an internal combustion engine and an electric motor, plus a CVT. So clearly engineering skill and manufacturing quality are bigger factors than the drive train.

How unreliable are ICEs these days - maybe its just me, but I've never had an engine problem in nearly 20 years of owning cars. Electrical problems, suspension problems, drainage problems - had all of them but never had a problem with the actual engine.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla Model 3 Hits Production

#170

Post by dom0 »

arethuza wrote: post #86
nradov wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If electric cars are so simple, why is the Tesla Model S so unreliable? https://www.truedelta.com/Tesla-Model-S/reliability-1095 Conversely, the Toyota Prius is one of the most reliable cars. Yet it is mechanically complex with both an internal combustion engine and an electric motor, plus a CVT. So clearly engineering skill and manufacturing quality are bigger factors than the drive train.

How unreliable are ICEs these days - maybe its just me, but I've never had an engine problem in nearly 20 years of owning cars. Electrical problems, suspension problems, drainage problems - had all of them but never had a problem with the actual engine.

Turbo-diesel fuel injection pumps are ... not the most reliable thing to have in a car.
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