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I'm not a Woman in Tech

communequation.wordpress.com

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Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#91

>I want inclusivity, not exclusivity. Thank you. I find myself feeling the exact same way as a black man in this industry, and cringe at "minority only" events and clubs. We don't need token inclusion and separate praise for being "brave" and "fighting against the odds". We need a world where those things are irrelevant.

That seems a short-sighted way to look at it.

Yes, of course in an ideal world these things would be non-issues, but they aren't. People are discriminated against, and there are barriers from culture that won't change without intentional scruity.

Of course, everyone should be able to just do their job and no more. If you aren't interested in being a role model or trying to push for that equality, that's absolutely fine, no one is obligated to do so. Some people do, however, and they will be trying to find others that do, I don't think that's unreasonable.

If, for example, women are routinely excluded from male-dominated clubs, for example, maybe they never get an interest in programming. While in an ideal world everyone can attend those clubs and it doesn't matter, if that's not the reality because of societal expectation, until that expectation has changed, maybe girl's clubs allow girls to get involved without fear of the societal stigma of doing "boys things" (if they don't happen to be one of the IDGAF people who do it anyway), resulting in more women in tech, which normalises it, eventually removing the need for girl's specific clubs.

This isn't exactly a new idea. It's the same idea behind things like women's-only chess - if the culture has excluded a group for a long time, it can be hard for talented individuals to get started because they get excluded inherently. If you can create a separate culture to get them interested, then merge the cultures over time, you can fix that.

To me, saying "we should just have everyone together" is like proclaiming racism was done the day slavery was abolished. Things don't magically get fixed culturally and socially - that takes an integration.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#92
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, agreed. I still remember seeing a bunch of college students pushing for 'segregation' at university because it would 'help minorities' and thinking "Wasn't that exactly what we got rid of because it was horribly racist 50 years or so ago?" It feels like all these 'minority only' events and clubs and what not are going straight back to the bad old days. Just from the opposite 'side' of the political spectrum.

Opinions about -only events aside, there's a difference between a homogeneous group of people choosing to be together, and a group of individuals who were barred from using specific toilets, water fountains, seats, education opportunities, jobs, etc. Comparing segregation to voluntary -only events is a gross misunderstanding of how things were.

Well it is my understanding that it was a whites-only back in the day. Now it is a not-whites only which really doesn't seem as different to me as you comment indicates it really is. It is just a different group of people telling others what they can and can't do.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#93
post #66

I really agree with this. It has always disturbed me when a push for female developers is mentioned; a company should be focused on acquiring the best developers they can, not finding ones of a specific gender. This behaviour is literally an example of the problem it is trying to resolve. To the company I work for, I am a software engineer, not a man or woman.

> a company should be focused on acquiring the best developers they can, not finding ones of a specific gender I respectfully disagree. This position doesn't take into account how existing gender biases affect those who are choosing which field to enter. If a field is primarily composed of men, then young women may not feel welcome in the field and may go elsewhere, meaning there are fewer good developers in the pool…

Are you suggesting that "half the population" is not as capable? That's the only way they would be excluded according to the parent post.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sharing opinions is just not "safe" anymore Free speech is dead.

Not dead - you can speak your mind - just you pay a social price to do so. Free speech, even in the most libertarian concept I have doesn't prevent other people's right to criticize your speech - in fact, I'd say it encourages just that. Speak out against stuff you don't like rather than censoring it. Ultimately it's an effect of large, diverse communities and deep political divisions. If you want to have political d…

Social media can become mass media, and it's not up to you to decide if and when that happens.

In the past, you could just vocalise your opinion, and it would not survive many hops in the real-world social network.

So yeah, you can express your opinion, but your chance of being crucified for it has risen significantly.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#95

I don’t want your ‘exclusively for women’ support groups I want inclusivity, not exclusivity. You’re victimising me when you do that. You’re indicating that it’s most likely I need special, extra support. Just because I’m female. You’re also indicating that “this is a women’s problem, best solved by women” but that deepens the divide, creating an “us” and a “them”. Just based on gender… This is the core point for me.…

> We men must make the changes that make women feel more welcome at the workplace. One easy to way to start (courtesy of a friend of mine) is to go up to a female colleague and ask for 1 thing that can make the company more inclusive, then do that without judging.

This is exactly the kind of behavior that the author is speaking out against.

> It’s hurtful when you say “we need to solve the problem of women in tech” and “Maria, you’re a woman in tech” in the same breath…

My take away from this post is that Maria is hired as a software developer and would like to get on with software development. Not be a champion of diversity just because she is a woman.

> Maybe I’m representative, maybe I’m not, but don’t ask me to represent!

> You’re also indicating that “this is a women’s problem, best solved by women” but that deepens the divide, creating an “us” and a “them”.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#96
edit

Why did my comment get dislodged from being underneath another comment that I was replying to?

It's now showing as a stand-alone comment under the thread.

-------------------------------------------

I'm doing a similar thing. I stopped posting anything personal on Facebook about a year ago and I never post to Twitter. I'll never go back to posting personal thoughts on social media, not under any circumstances. It's a wholly pre-emptive move.

At least in the US, society has become so aggressively censorship-by-threat & political correctness oriented, with severe consequences to going against popular opinion, it's not worth the risk to my business interests to stand out with an opinion that could be unpopular at any point (get caught with an opinion that is in the minute considered hurtful, hateful, whatever).

I don't agree with unfettered illegal immigration for example; I overwhelmingly agree with legal immigration and think the US system needs reformed to facilitate easier immigration. The left now considers that to be racist, xenophobic, hate-thought, insert-control-vector-label-here.

I don't agree with feminism as a concept, I'm in favor of equality (which - in my opinion - nullifies the supposed point of feminism). Many on the left consider that to be attacking women, holding women down, being sexist, being anti-women, etc.

This is the only place I post opinions online now.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#97

>I want inclusivity, not exclusivity. Thank you. I find myself feeling the exact same way as a black man in this industry, and cringe at "minority only" events and clubs. We don't need token inclusion and separate praise for being "brave" and "fighting against the odds". We need a world where those things are irrelevant.

Watching from the sidelines as a white male, I have to say that I find these kinds of situations so confusing. Some people want these differences to be highlighted, while others like yourself want the complete opposite. I'm left believing that my only choice is to have no opinion. Though I lean towards your stance across the board.

Its almost like a industry upon itself, being busy being insulted and helping to overcome those insults by selling seminars, stickers and absolution.

I almost feel sorry for anyone who is to deal with either side. Harassment is one thing, but if that industry is the only help you can turn too- that is worser. Cause this side has no interest in resolving the core Issue (it literaly lives from it) and doesn't have a interest in a good outcome for the harassed either.

Still, if i think back on the woman i tutored in the freshman C-class - and later in there careers - any creep in power molesting those: Its good that this industry exists, to apply pressure too keep standards. For every woman in tech, should be able to walk, live and write like maria.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sharing opinions is just not "safe" anymore Free speech is dead.

Not dead - you can speak your mind - just you pay a social price to do so. Free speech, even in the most libertarian concept I have doesn't prevent other people's right to criticize your speech - in fact, I'd say it encourages just that. Speak out against stuff you don't like rather than censoring it. Ultimately it's an effect of large, diverse communities and deep political divisions. If you want to have political d…

Exactly. Free speech goes both ways. The only people I see saying things like 'free speech is dead', are usually the ones who want to say ignorant things and get away with it.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not dead - you can speak your mind - just you pay a social price to do so. Free speech, even in the most libertarian concept I have doesn't prevent other people's right to criticize your speech - in fact, I'd say it encourages just that. Speak out against stuff you don't like rather than censoring it. Ultimately it's an effect of large, diverse communities and deep political divisions. If you want to have political d…

Just because something is legal doesn't mean we're at liberty to do it. People mistake society for government and vice versa.

I'd argue you're still at liberty to do it - you just have to be willing to accept any social prices associated with it. Other people enjoy the same liberties that you do, they have every right to think and say whatever they will about you due to your speech.

Of course, this is really only a significant issue on a public forum, on which you can post pseudonymously and still gain any benefits of discussion without paying any significant toll. Some people view this as a negative and want to ban this kind of commenting - I love it, it means you can experiment with different views, make arguments you might not want to make in real life and see what sticks with you.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#100
post #26

>I want inclusivity, not exclusivity. Thank you. I find myself feeling the exact same way as a black man in this industry, and cringe at "minority only" events and clubs. We don't need token inclusion and separate praise for being "brave" and "fighting against the odds". We need a world where those things are irrelevant.

Eh, this is just the standard argument against "identity politics". The obvious counterpoint is that, by working together as an identified sub-group, you have greater power than you would otherwise. Dedicated venues for those sub-groups offer a place to organize, provide communal support, etc. Frankly, I think it's sadly naive to believe that we can simply "Lose all the labels" and that'll magically fix things. "Iden…

That only works if you want to bully others for the resources. (That's how unions work). That, however, will re-enfonce negative stereotypes for the group and will not improve anything.

If you want to overcome the stereotype, work with other people. Get to know them. Learn the rules of the game and play by the same rules as everyone in society does.

If you want to identify as that subgroup based on (gender/race/etc) for social and communal support. No one will fault you on that. (That's culture) However, you will be judged on being hostile/exclusive if non-members of that group are harshly penalized for attempting to integrate with the culture.

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