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The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

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Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#91
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's disturbing. I suspect most of this community would be anti-anti-vax (pro-vax?). And if one were to suggest on this forum that "I vaccinated my child and they got autism, therefore vaccines cause autism", they would be met with the appropriate skepticism. But in this thread people are professing "I had acupuncture and got better, therefore acupuncture works" and somehow that's considered defensible.

"Anecdotal" is not the correct term. "Testimonial" is. People are relaying the truth they observed, which is testimony. Anecdote means more along the lines of hearsay, or repeating something from a third party as if it were testimonial.

Anecdotal sounds accurate to me:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

> Anecdotal evidence is evidence from anecdotes, i.e., evidence collected in a casual or informal manner and relying heavily or entirely on personal testimony. When compared to other types of evidence, anecdotal evidence is generally regarded as limited in value due to a number of potential weaknesses, but may be considered within the scope of scientific method as some anecdotal evidence can be both empirical and verifiable, e.g. in the use of case studies in medicine. Other anecdotal evidence, however, does not qualify as scientific evidence, because its nature prevents it from being investigated by the scientific method.

> Where only one or a few anecdotes are presented, there is a larger chance that they may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases.[1][2] Similarly, psychologists have found that due to cognitive bias people are more likely to remember notable or unusual examples rather than typical examples.[3] Thus, even when accurate, anecdotal evidence is not necessarily representative of a typical experience. Accurate determination of whether an anecdote is "typical" requires statistical evidence.[4] Misuse of anecdotal evidence is an informal fallacy and is sometimes referred to as the "person who" fallacy ("I know a person who..."; "I know of a case where..." etc.) which places undue weight on experiences of close peers which may not be typical. Compare with hasty generalization.

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#92
post #9

Here's some free advice. When your back bothers you, try some jogging. If you can't jog, walk. Taking it "easy" by laying around is not the cure. I'm pretty sure the vast number of back problems are caused by too much sitting and lying down.

I'm in agreement that most of back pain is better served by keeping active rather than resting, but running specifically is not the best way to keep active for it. Sure, if it doesn't hurt and actively seems to help, go for it. I love running, but the constant pounding does my L4/L5 herniated disc no good whatsoever.

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#93
post #6

On the flip side, I had lower back pain of varying intensity for about two years before it got really bad really suddenly and I went to someone recommended by someone knowledgeable in the subject who fixed it in about 30 minutes of some serious stretching and twisting and turning [1]. Two months with not a hint of pain and I'm pretty sure this is yet another example of the medical industry being incentivized into ign…

> why would anyone ever fix it in a for-profit system? For the same reason any other problem gets solved in a for-profit system; the best solver of problems will be the best getter of dollars. See for instance Apple, Honda, Nike, Harvard, etc.

Well, let's say that medical ethics is a thing, and ethics in used-car sales is not. I'm attached to a medical school in a Southern state, and Trump was ahead in my neck of the woods with 2/3 of the vote, and it's taken seriously here by the physicians.

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#94

I've kept back pain at bay with a simple 3-point plan. Sleep on an uncomfortable bed with a firm surface and a thin futon for padding. Sit on uncomfortable chairs, mostly the wooden kitchen chair type. Lift free weights, i.e. barbells or kettle bells. No levers and pulley systems. The weight has to be free to fall and hurt you. Just never overdo it so that it never does fall like that. Works for me, probably because…

I've been on the "sleep on exercise mat with some blankets" train for years, but a few months back, stepped it up by eliminating pillows. I still gravitate towards getting something under my head, but it turns out that I only need another small blanket or cloth. I wake at more consistent hours and no longer experience numbness in my arms when waking. I believe there are many more "details" I can improve too. I got into training fast and slow breathing patterns for different activities, which seems to help both the training and the recovery. A plainer diet seems to help a lot of things, although it's hard to reconcile this against the constant imposition of the world to eat pizza and drink beer.

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#95
post #23
post #6

On the flip side, I had lower back pain of varying intensity for about two years before it got really bad really suddenly and I went to someone recommended by someone knowledgeable in the subject who fixed it in about 30 minutes of some serious stretching and twisting and turning [1]. Two months with not a hint of pain and I'm pretty sure this is yet another example of the medical industry being incentivized into ign…

This argument has always seemed pretty silly to me. Why, if this is how the market for medical services worked, would medical services cure any problem, when they could find ways to milk those problems for recurring revenue? Why aren't malaria or stomach ulcers "chronic manageable illnesses", rather than curable ones?

Consider Hepatitis C. Chronic infection puts the patient at risk for cirrhosis and eventual liver failure, and the treatment for that is a liver transplant.

A couple of years ago Telepravir (Schering/Merck) and Boceprevir (Vertex/J&J) came to market. The price for a course of treatment has nothing to do with the cost of development and everything with the cost of a liver transplant, it's slightly less than that.

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#96
post #9

Here's some free advice. When your back bothers you, try some jogging. If you can't jog, walk. Taking it "easy" by laying around is not the cure. I'm pretty sure the vast number of back problems are caused by too much sitting and lying down.

Powerlifting is the source of and solution to, all of my aches and pains.

I am not a doctor and this is anecdotal but strength training has been a serious positive for me. As a desk jockey I had developed various posture and functional deficits as a human being. I have been strength training for 8 years now and my mood and physical wellbeing is starkly different.

Pros of strength training over other kinds include: low rep count, no silly ab curls, everything is very pragmatic and logical, no unfounded health fads required. Should there ever be a wild barbell blocking the path of emergency services or exit from a fire, with proper form, you could be the hero of the day.

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#97
At one time someone close to me was experiencing back pain, we both saw a lovely episode of the TV series 'Louie'. Here is a quote from that episode:

  Dr. Bigelow: What can I do for you?
  Louie: Uh, well, I hurt my back today really bad. Uh. 
    Can you help me with my back? I mean...
  Dr. Bigelow: What's wrong with your back?
  Louie: It hurts.
  Dr. Bigelow: My professional diagnosis is your back hurts.
  Louie: Well, what can I do about it?
  Dr. Bigelow: Nothing.
  Louie: Nothing?
  Dr. Bigelow: The problem is you're using it wrong. The back 
    isn't done evolving yet. You see, the spine is a row of 
    vertebrae. It was designed to be horizontal. Then people 
    came along and used it vertical. Wasn't meant for that. 
    So the disks get all floppy, swollen. Pop out left, pop 
    out right. It'll take another. I'd say 20,000 years to 
    get straightened out. Till then, it's going to keep hurting.
  Louie: So that's it?
  Dr. Bigelow: It's an engineering design problem. It's a 
    misallocation. We were given a clothesline and we're using 
    it as a flagpole.

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#98

Anyone who has endured back pain knows it is an erratic dictator. It takes hold of your psyche, demanding your attention and devotion before all else—before you can plan a hike, return to a work routine, pick up your child for a hug. So when someone offers to make that dictator disappear, it’s hard to resist—no matter what the price. Although there are many people who do manual labor for whom the inability to move pr…

[deleted]

Re: The $100B per year back pain industry is mostly a hoax

#100
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument has always seemed pretty silly to me. Why, if this is how the market for medical services worked, would medical services cure any problem, when they could find ways to milk those problems for recurring revenue? Why aren't malaria or stomach ulcers "chronic manageable illnesses", rather than curable ones?

Consider Hepatitis C. Chronic infection puts the patient at risk for cirrhosis and eventual liver failure, and the treatment for that is a liver transplant. A couple of years ago Telepravir (Schering/Merck) and Boceprevir (Vertex/J&J) came to market. The price for a course of treatment has nothing to do with the cost of development and everything with the cost of a liver transplant, it's slightly less than that.

What argument of mine are you attempting to rebut?
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