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The capital sharp S in now part of the official German orthography

typography.guru

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Re: The capital sharp S in now part of the official German orthography

#361
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hardly. See https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Iulius_Caesar

Latin wikipedia isn't exactly an ancient source. Without bothering to read the article, why do you think it has a subhead of "Fontes_de_vita_C._Iulii_Caesaris_praecipui"?

I'll take this cum cranulo salis.

Re: The capital sharp S in now part of the official German orthography

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Latin wikipedia isn't exactly an ancient source. Without bothering to read the article, why do you think it has a subhead of "Fontes_de_vita_C._Iulii_Caesaris_praecipui"?

I'll take this cum cranulo salis.

You think "cum granulo salis" is evidence for G being an original part of the Latin alphabet, while not being evidence that U was an original part of the Latin alphabet?

Re: The capital sharp S in now part of the official German orthography

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll take this cum cranulo salis.

You think "cum granulo salis" is evidence for G being an original part of the Latin alphabet, while not being evidence that U was an original part of the Latin alphabet?

Sure, G wasn't "originally" part of the Latin alphabet—until they invented that letter.

Re: The capital sharp S in now part of the official German orthography

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think "cum granulo salis" is evidence for G being an original part of the Latin alphabet, while not being evidence that U was an original part of the Latin alphabet?

Sure, G wasn't "originally" part of the Latin alphabet—until they invented that letter.

What do you think makes G different from J and U in that regard?

Re: The capital sharp S in now part of the official German orthography

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, G wasn't "originally" part of the Latin alphabet—until they invented that letter.

What do you think makes G different from J and U in that regard?

Timing. Where do you think G slots in the timeline, relative to the Latin classics?

Re: The capital sharp S in now part of the official German orthography

#366
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I speak two languages with gendered nouns, and I didn't find much specific usefulness for it. It's just something that is part of the package, so you go with it, and you can claim that provides more rich texture or such (though I'm not sure why knowing "table" is "male" and "government" is "female" really has any meaning, but maybe poets have one more tool to play with), but I'm not really sure it's that useful outsi…

Just out of curiosity, which language are your examples from? I'm asking because my native language is Serbian and it also features "male" tables and "female" government.

Hebrew has the same. Spanish though has it reversed (I didn't mean it among languages I speak since I'm just beginning studying it).

Re: The capital sharp S in now part of the official German orthography

#367
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think those is more like ram/ewe, just words to signify specific objects having gender. But words themselves don't have grammatical gender, not like in Russian and German, where every noun is gendered and all (well, most) adjectives/verbs/etc. have to be modified to fit the gender of the noun. Presents tons of problems for localization, because a) you have to have 3 separate ways of saying the same and b) you can n…

I assume Russian and German are like French and Spanish, where the standard practice is just to use the masculine version if the gender is unknown.

Not really. In Russian, it's usually follows what it feels intuitively closer to - i.e. if it ends with a vowel like "a", it's likely to be female - Coca-Cola, Nutella, Fanta, etc. If it ends in consonant, it'll be male. If it ends in "o", "e", etc. - probably neuter. Though there could be more complex cases - e.g. I'm not sure what gender would something like "Subaru" assume. Probably depends on implied noun - if it's a "company named Subaru" then probably female, because "company" is female, if it's a restaurant named "Subaru" (assuming such one exists and is not sued for trademark violation) then it's be male because "restaurant" is male. Some speakers would just avoid putting such words into a context where such decision needs to be taken (fortunately, Russian has no articles, so die/der/das is not an issue :) or attaches explicit native noun like "company" or "restaurant" to make it clear.

Some words are kind of gender-fluid too. E.g. a word meaning "hall" was female and neuter in past centuries, and now is male. The word for "coffee" is male in formal/educated speech and neuter is less-educated but (to my despair) rapidly gaining legitimacy speech. Russian is fun :)

For things like the user, you can always assume male, but as with other such assumptions, some people may object to it. In some cases, there is a built-in assumption that male includes female when gender is unknown, but in others it just means male and that's it.

Re: The capital sharp S in now part of the official German orthography

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think makes G different from J and U in that regard?

Timing. Where do you think G slots in the timeline, relative to the Latin classics?

G dates to the classical period. But, as I pointed out above, it's still intrusive enough then that Caesar's praenomen, Gaius, is written C, not G. The name is older than the letter, but younger than Latin writing.

Re: The capital sharp S in now part of the official German orthography

#369
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, ok. I'm not a native English speaker, so I suppose "rather" wasn't the right word. Maybe "notably different"?

"Rather" appears to be a fine word choice for your intended meaning. I'm objecting to your intended meaning (as far as I can perceive it): - [θ] and [ð] are objectively similar sounds, differing only in voicing. - The argument is not even very good that /θ/ and /ð/ are different phonemes in English -- they contrast only in the pair of words teeth/teethe, and one of those words is fairly rare. If you, as a foreign spe…

Thanks for the reply! I appreciate the clarification.

The variations around "th" is one of the things I remember finding particularly difficult when learning English pronounciation, so my comment came from there.

Re: The capital sharp S in now part of the official German orthography

#370
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Der Nutella-Brotaufstrich. Two can play this game. There is no sane answer. Except for rules of thumbs like "Romance-sounding word ending in -a is probably female".

My point is that, whenever you want to use a brand name like "Nutella" in a specific context and you're unsure about the gender, you can just use a compound word with a clearly defined gender instead.

Touché.

On a semi-related note: in the Rhineland gendered articles are also used colloquially when talking about people: "Der Mark", "Die Steffi" and so on. I was born into this but I'm unsure how I feel about it after finding out it's actually non-standard in the rest of Germany.

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