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Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

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Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#211

Post by mikeash »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #208
mikeash wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about all the poor people who want to work but can't find a job, or all the poor people who do work but just don't earn enough to stop being poor?

If those people managed to graduate high school and didn't have children out of wedlock, then there's a 98% chance they'll escape poverty. https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/three-simple-rules-poor-t...

Graduate, hold off on kids, and get a full time job.

Thus my sarcasm. Escape poverty by making money. It's a miracle!

By the way, your 98% figure is incorrect. The study says that 2% of all Americans who did these three things are in poverty. The vast majority of those people were never in poverty to begin with, so didn't escape it.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#212

Post by wwweston »

haberman wrote: post #40
mark_edward wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an excellent non sequitur. What does that have to do with most of the poor being elderly or children? Are you saying they aren't?

Grandparent's statement "there are such things as facts" seems to support the idea that the evidence provides unambiguous support for the author's thesis. I think people discussing complex phenomena (like poverty) tend to overstate the power of their evidence; they overstate its ability to support the conclusions they want to draw from it. This was illustrated in dramatic fashion when many/most of the most educated,…

> What I am against is the (to me) crazy amount of overconfidence many people (on the left especially) have in the ability of their data to "prove" their political positions and arguments.

Part of this statement seems to reflect a high degree of confidence in the idea that this is phenomenon "especially" afflicts the left, but there doesn't seem to have been a presentation of evidence which provides unambiguous support for the thesis.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#213

Post by Consultant32452 »

mikeash wrote: post #211
Consultant32452 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If those people managed to graduate high school and didn't have children out of wedlock, then there's a 98% chance they'll escape poverty. https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/three-simple-rules-poor-t...

Graduate, hold off on kids, and get a full time job . Thus my sarcasm. Escape poverty by making money. It's a miracle! By the way, your 98% figure is incorrect. The study says that 2% of all Americans who did these three things are in poverty. The vast majority of those people were never in poverty to begin with, so didn't escape it.

Escape/avoid, now you're just arguing semantics. I'm not even really sure what your point is. The only thing I stated is that we know the recipe for avoiding and/or leaving poverty. It's not necessarily easy but it is simple and it has three major factors. All I stated was our social policies should reflect the things we know work. Yes, to a certain extent jobs don't just fall out of the sky. But it's much harder to get and maintain a job and/or move up the ladder when you don't graduate high school and pop out kids in a single parent household. And don't pretend it's that hard to maintain basic employment. We're not talking about making everyone doctors here.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#214

Post by haberman »

wwweston wrote: post #212
haberman wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grandparent's statement "there are such things as facts" seems to support the idea that the evidence provides unambiguous support for the author's thesis. I think people discussing complex phenomena (like poverty) tend to overstate the power of their evidence; they overstate its ability to support the conclusions they want to draw from it. This was illustrated in dramatic fashion when many/most of the most educated,…

> What I am against is the (to me) crazy amount of overconfidence many people (on the left especially) have in the ability of their data to "prove" their political positions and arguments. Part of this statement seems to reflect a high degree of confidence in the idea that this is phenomenon "especially" afflicts the left, but there doesn't seem to have been a presentation of evidence which provides unambiguous suppo…

I meant to delete that part actually. I thought I had. On reflection, it seemed likely that this could be a distortion in my viewpoint based on the fact that most of my Facebook sphere leans heavily left. So I probably don't see as much of the right's poor argumentation.

> but there doesn't seem to have been a presentation of evidence which provides unambiguous support for the thesis.

I said "(to me)" as a disclaimer that I was offering my opinion/belief, and not a provable thesis.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#215

Post by mikeash »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #213
mikeash wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Graduate, hold off on kids, and get a full time job . Thus my sarcasm. Escape poverty by making money. It's a miracle! By the way, your 98% figure is incorrect. The study says that 2% of all Americans who did these three things are in poverty. The vast majority of those people were never in poverty to begin with, so didn't escape it.

Escape/avoid, now you're just arguing semantics. I'm not even really sure what your point is. The only thing I stated is that we know the recipe for avoiding and/or leaving poverty. It's not necessarily easy but it is simple and it has three major factors. All I stated was our social policies should reflect the things we know work. Yes, to a certain extent jobs don't just fall out of the sky. But it's much harder to…

There's a huuuuge difference between escaping poverty and avoiding poverty.

70% of Americans who are born poor will die poor. I can't find solid number for how many non-poor Americans will become poor, but given that the poverty rate is about 15%, and 70% of that 15% was born into poverty, we can straightforwardly estimate that about 6% of non-poor Americans become poor.

In other words, the chances of any random poor American escaping poverty are about 30%, while the chances of any random non-poor American avoiding poverty are about 94%.

With 94% of non-poor Americans avoiding poverty, saying that 98% of Americans who do X, Y, and Z escape or avoid poverty is not terribly compelling.

I'm sure that obtaining and maintaining full-time employment really helps people escape from poverty. My point is just that this is not really useful to say, because it's fairly obvious, and because the difficult part is having jobs for poor people to work. Saying that we should help poor people escape poverty by ensuring they can work full-time jobs is like saying we should help put people on the moon by giving them altitude. Yes, it's true, but not really helpful advice.

So much social policy already revolves around jobs that I just don't see why you act like this is some revolutionary idea. The question is not whether we should help poor people work. The question is how.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#216

Post by Consultant32452 »

mikeash wrote: post #215
Consultant32452 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Escape/avoid, now you're just arguing semantics. I'm not even really sure what your point is. The only thing I stated is that we know the recipe for avoiding and/or leaving poverty. It's not necessarily easy but it is simple and it has three major factors. All I stated was our social policies should reflect the things we know work. Yes, to a certain extent jobs don't just fall out of the sky. But it's much harder to…

There's a huuuuge difference between escaping poverty and avoiding poverty. 70% of Americans who are born poor will die poor. I can't find solid number for how many non-poor Americans will become poor, but given that the poverty rate is about 15%, and 70% of that 15% was born into poverty, we can straightforwardly estimate that about 6% of non-poor Americans become poor. In other words, the chances of any random poor…

95% of people in poverty in the US escape poverty during their lifetime. The poverty rate stays the same, but the people who are impoverished is changing all the time.

>The question is not whether we should help poor people work.

You keep repeatedly and intentionally dodging the fact that all three things I listed are symbiotic of one another. Single motherhood is one of the largest contributors to poverty, and it tends to be cyclical/generational as single mothers tend to have children who have children out of wedlock, are more likely to drop out of high school, and as a result have a harder time maintaining employment. And no, I'm not picking on the mothers here, because it takes two people to make a single mother.

>The question is how.

We can stop by not subsidizing poverty producing behaviors while continuing to subsidize or change policy to further subsidize behaviors that don't increase poverty. Increase funding for birth control, decrease funding/subsidies/tax breaks for having children, change middle and high school curriculum to include sociology/life skills for avoiding poverty producing behavior. Determine the efficacy of stricter divorce laws and potentially apply reasonable measures to encourage people to stay married.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#217

Post by mikeash »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #216
mikeash wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a huuuuge difference between escaping poverty and avoiding poverty. 70% of Americans who are born poor will die poor. I can't find solid number for how many non-poor Americans will become poor, but given that the poverty rate is about 15%, and 70% of that 15% was born into poverty, we can straightforwardly estimate that about 6% of non-poor Americans become poor. In other words, the chances of any random poor…

95% of people in poverty in the US escape poverty during their lifetime. The poverty rate stays the same, but the people who are impoverished is changing all the time. >The question is not whether we should help poor people work. You keep repeatedly and intentionally dodging the fact that all three things I listed are symbiotic of one another. Single motherhood is one of the largest contributors to poverty, and it te…

"95% of people in poverty in the US escape poverty during their lifetime."

Do you have a source for that? As I mentioned, the number I found was 30%.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#218

Post by Consultant32452 »

mikeash wrote: post #217
Consultant32452 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

95% of people in poverty in the US escape poverty during their lifetime. The poverty rate stays the same, but the people who are impoverished is changing all the time. >The question is not whether we should help poor people work. You keep repeatedly and intentionally dodging the fact that all three things I listed are symbiotic of one another. Single motherhood is one of the largest contributors to poverty, and it te…

"95% of people in poverty in the US escape poverty during their lifetime." Do you have a source for that? As I mentioned, the number I found was 30%.

My mistake it's not out of poverty, it's out of the lowest quintile of income.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty >For example, one study finds that in a sixteen-year period (1975 to 1991 in the U.S.) only 5% of those in the lower fifth of the income level were still at that level, while 95% transitioned to a higher income category.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#219

Post by Powerofmene »

humanrebar wrote: post #105
rayiner wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was ranked 10th in a graduating class of 900 students and did well on the SATs except for the English section. Being born one or two standard deviations away from median on the intelligence scale is a whole lot of luck and privilege. > The problem is not money, but culture. Privilege has _nothing_ to do with it since tons of people in much much poorer countries with schools that have a lot fewer funds do a lot be…

> ...is a whole lot of luck and privilege. I really dislike the language of privilege in this context. I'm not sure what point it serves other to diminish someone else. Some people are smart. That's as much a part of them as their skin color or sexual identity. Should they feel apologetic about that? Also, as a counterpoint, I know brilliant people who wasted that talent on drugs and other things.

I agree totally. I have a friend who has a daughter special needs that includes both cognitive and complex physical challenges. During her divorce proceeding her ex's attorney asked her, "isn't it true that your daughter attends XYZ School for Exceptional Children?" She said yes. The attorney followed up the question with, "so then it is your privilege to have a gifted child, correct?" Her response, "well I guess it depends on how you look at the gift but it is certainly a privilege to have her as my daughter."

It appears that a physician who put himself through school because his family was without means to help is lucky because he had the brains and drive to make good grades. After getting his MD he chooses to focus on finding a cure for cancer and discovers protocols that inhibit cancer cell growth. When asked what drives him he says he lost his sister to cancer when he was a child and since that day he has wanted to be a doctor? So was he lucky to have had a sister w cancer?

Sometimes privilege and luck are not mutually exclusive. He certainly was privileged to find his calling at a young age and I would guess there was a fair amount of luck in there as well (getting into the school that nurtured his passion etc) but you cannot discount the power of personal drive either.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#220

Post by Can_Not »

jopsen wrote: post #58
Consultant32452 wrote: post #4

Staying out of poverty is simple. By in large it takes three things: graduate high school, maintain employment, and don't have children out of wedlock. These three things are important to remember whenever we're discussing social policy. Any policy that subsidizes or encourages people to not do those three things is a social policy that behaves like a poverty factory.

That's far from enough... But regardless. The discussion of who is at fault for poverty is pointless. We should never tolerate poverty regardless of how it came to be. The discussion has to be: Can we afford to have poverty? We need people to be productive members of society. This can be achieved by making good choices easier to make. Making it easier to get back on your feet when you get down... Health care, mental…

Every minute a poor person is using tax subsidized luxuries like iPhones or refrigerators is a minute they're not on the streets looking to rob me.
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