Yelp’s Six-Year Conflict with Google • Hacker News Board

Re: Yelp’s Six-Year Conflict with Google

#31

Post by concede_pluto » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 9:00 PM UTC

putlake wrote: post #21

redm wrote: post #9

"Mr. Stoppelman feels he has no choice. Like a lot of small internet companies, Yelp lives in a world where one company, Google, accounts for an outsize share of its business, and could destroy it at any time." That sums it up for Yelp and many others, myself included. Combine that reality with the black box that Google is, in many ways, and you have an inaccessible behemoth who's decisions decide the fate of many. G…

I agree. As a web publisher who depends on advertising for revenue and Google for traffic, things are getting more and more difficult. Google providing answers in the search box robs legitimate publishers of traffic. But the industry is so fragmented that a concerted legal action against Google is not possible. Since this is HN, I expect people are going to start chanting "Die you ad supported publishers or find a ne…

> it's great for the users to read the answer on Google

Do you disagree with that part? If a user reads a couple of sentences and decides they won't gain anything more by reading your page, are they wrong?

Re: Yelp’s Six-Year Conflict with Google

#32

Post by haltingthoughts » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 9:02 PM UTC

mrunkel wrote: post #13

I find all this hand wringing over Google to be so tiring. Google is doing what is best for it's customers. Be that advertisers and/or searchers. If they stop doing that, they'll lose their market dominance. Last I checked, nobody is forced to use google to search for things, nobody if forced (except for perhaps android users) to use Chrome. I'm not a laissez-faire capitalist by any means, but I don't see that Google…

Looking at what is best for consumers is missing the point. The point is that when companies use leverage in one market to help themselves or hurt competitors unfairly in other markets it stifles competition.

It's hard to be a web browser company when it comes bundled with the OS. Do you really want a world where you choose Apple, Google, or Amazon once for everything everywhere and that is the only choice you get? Or do you want Unix philosophy for businesses and mix and match however you feel?

Re: Yelp’s Six-Year Conflict with Google

#33

Post by sillysaurus3 » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 9:02 PM UTC

mdasen wrote: post #22

mrunkel wrote: post #13

I find all this hand wringing over Google to be so tiring. Google is doing what is best for it's customers. Be that advertisers and/or searchers. If they stop doing that, they'll lose their market dominance. Last I checked, nobody is forced to use google to search for things, nobody if forced (except for perhaps android users) to use Chrome. I'm not a laissez-faire capitalist by any means, but I don't see that Google…

> If they stop doing that, they'll lose their market dominance. That's precisely the issue. It can be illegal to use your market dominance in one area (search) to reinforce or create market dominance in other areas. Microsoft had the best operating system and a browser that they wanted people to use. People preferred Netscape, but Microsoft used its OS dominance to kill off Netscape. It is ok to be dominant in a prod…

It is ok to be dominant in a product. You aren't, however, allowed to use the dominance in one product to gain you dominance in other products.

Unfortunately there are countless counterexamples. It's an interesting ideal, but without court action it's toothless. And court action risks having a chilling effect on certain kinds of positive forces.

Re: Yelp’s Six-Year Conflict with Google

#34

Post by keymone » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 9:02 PM UTC

ClassyJacket wrote: post #23

kefka wrote: post #16

Indeed, Google is too big and has a massive effect on the Internet across the whole world. A single capricious decision made by Google/Alphabet can cause dozens of businesses to shutter or fail. And that is a big problem, especially if we care about upstarts and new companies. However, that responsibility they fail to take in consideration except by lawsuit, does not counteract YELP's BaaS - Blackmail as a Service. T…

You're absolutely right. Yelp adds no value the dozens of other review apps don't, they simply succed because they extort and blackmail small businesses. I refuse to install their app and the quicker they die the better.

> they extort and blackmail small businesses

do you have any evidence of this?

Re: Yelp’s Six-Year Conflict with Google

#35

Post by keymone » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 9:04 PM UTC

kefka wrote: post #16

Indeed, Google is too big and has a massive effect on the Internet across the whole world. A single capricious decision made by Google/Alphabet can cause dozens of businesses to shutter or fail. And that is a big problem, especially if we care about upstarts and new companies. However, that responsibility they fail to take in consideration except by lawsuit, does not counteract YELP's BaaS - Blackmail as a Service. T…

> have been known to, time and again, to shake down companies

do you have any evidence of this?

Re: Yelp’s Six-Year Conflict with Google

#36

Post by falsedan » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 9:05 PM UTC

AznHisoka wrote: post #27

putlake wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. As a web publisher who depends on advertising for revenue and Google for traffic, things are getting more and more difficult. Google providing answers in the search box robs legitimate publishers of traffic. But the industry is so fragmented that a concerted legal action against Google is not possible. Since this is HN, I expect people are going to start chanting "Die you ad supported publishers or find a ne…

OK, so now that implicit contract changed and says Google can show that information above the organic search results. Given this, publishers do have a choice of blocking Google in their robots.txt. this is an implicit agreement (not explicit). the agreement changed. publishers still have a chance to respond... dont like it? block google! (its just 1 line in robots.txt) go rely on word of mouth, bing, ads and emailing…

> you voluntarily agree to the agreement and have no right to complain

See, that sounds exactly like the kind of thing a standover merchant would say: feel free not to pay the protection fees, sure would be a shame if something would happen to your organic search traffic…

Re: Yelp’s Six-Year Conflict with Google

#37

Post by baddox » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 9:07 PM UTC

haltingthoughts wrote: post #32

mrunkel wrote: post #13

I find all this hand wringing over Google to be so tiring. Google is doing what is best for it's customers. Be that advertisers and/or searchers. If they stop doing that, they'll lose their market dominance. Last I checked, nobody is forced to use google to search for things, nobody if forced (except for perhaps android users) to use Chrome. I'm not a laissez-faire capitalist by any means, but I don't see that Google…

Looking at what is best for consumers is missing the point. The point is that when companies use leverage in one market to help themselves or hurt competitors unfairly in other markets it stifles competition. It's hard to be a web browser company when it comes bundled with the OS. Do you really want a world where you choose Apple, Google, or Amazon once for everything everywhere and that is the only choice you get? O…

Isn't stifling competition only bad if it harms consumers? I don't understand how what's best for consumers isn't the point.

Re: Yelp’s Six-Year Conflict with Google

#38

Post by nradov » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 9:07 PM UTC

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #30

mrunkel wrote: post #13

I find all this hand wringing over Google to be so tiring. Google is doing what is best for it's customers. Be that advertisers and/or searchers. If they stop doing that, they'll lose their market dominance. Last I checked, nobody is forced to use google to search for things, nobody if forced (except for perhaps android users) to use Chrome. I'm not a laissez-faire capitalist by any means, but I don't see that Google…

> Google is doing what is best for it's customers. But is it? Because right now I basically can't stop using Google services at this point because they pushed out many others from the market. I would however greatly prefer some competition in the field.

Which Google services no longer have competition?

Re: Yelp’s Six-Year Conflict with Google

#39

Post by jrheard » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 9:08 PM UTC

wannabe_miner wrote: post #4

Unrelated but related, what is it like to work at Yelp? I was recently contacted by them for a position but it didn't inspire confidence. The mention of a "shoestring operation" in this article is making me believe I made the right choice.

I worked there as a software engineer for six years, first in SF, then remotely in Oregon. I loved it. The people are brilliant and friendly, the codebase and tooling are top-notch. If you're a programmer, it's a great place to work.

Re: Yelp’s Six-Year Conflict with Google

#40

Post by falsedan » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 9:09 PM UTC

benchaney wrote: post #24

falsedan wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point was, you can choose not to use Yelp and your life will fine and dandy; not so much with google.

The opposite is actually true. If you are being slandered on yelp you cannot just choose for it to end. On the other hand you can use another search engine or advertising firm without any problems.

I don’t get it: which search engines?