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Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

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Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#531

Post by CRConrad »

c22 wrote: post #501
barrkel wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communication isn't the value he's generating, and he's not causing harm through deception. Companies employing me all my life have lied by omission to me, about my value to the company and how much more they benefit from my work over and above my salary. Is that ethical?

He is causing harm through deception. The bugs he produces as a ruse have to be checked for and repaired by other employees who might not need to check the output of a well tested automated solution at all.

Nope, you got that wrong. He reported the workflow (possibly extended on it in a comment) as he generates a draft, others check that for bugs, he generates a final version ostensibly based on that bug-checking. Intentional errors are introduced only into the draft, not the final version, so even if his colleagues miss any of them, they aren't in the final result.

So nothing _has_ "to be checked for and repaired"; as others have commented, he's just doing his part to help these colleagues have something to do, too.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#532

Post by CRConrad »

MrZongle2 wrote: post #78
protonfish wrote: post #22

I did not expect to see so much contention about this. A company is paying him to do a job, and he is doing that job. Is the problem that he isn't miserable? This baffles me.

That was my first take as well, but it can be easy to overlook this part of the original post: "I even insert a few bugs here and there to make it look like it’s been generated by a human." The fact that he is engaging in deception to make it look like he's still doing it manually rubs a lot of people, myself included, the wrong way. You could also argue that by introducing bugs, he's intentionally degrading the end…

You could also argue that by introducing bugs, he's intentionally degrading the end product.

He is intentionally not degrading the end product: The bugs are inserted into the version he sends out as a draft, before sending out a "corrected" final one (i.e, presumably, the same output from his script, but before he put in the fake errors).

Two observations:

1) Hm, here's hoping he always remembers to date the "final fixed" version later than the "original to-be-fixed" one.

2) What is it with you -- not just MrZongle2, but pretty much everybody commenting here -- does "RTFA" mean anything to you...?

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#533

Post by goosh11 »

observation wrote: post #495
wst_ wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think you couldn't get good salary as a developer in UK. Is IT market so low paid in there? I know at least one person who seems to be fine in there.

Yes, in comparison to the alternatives for somebody like the average programmer Trigger Warning: Micro Essay coming up and one that may irk you. I understand that and accept my view is not the conventional one. My view: I have a negative view of the industry, but I think I can justify it. Don't read on unless you want to hear about the industry's failure modes. There are many positive things about our industry and pe…

this is a ridiculous claim. I worked in London and with 5 years experience I was earning about 75k contracting, 10 years ago. And that was a pretty standard contract, nothing special. Your claim that I would have been better off with a blue collar job outside the capital is laughable.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#534

Post by stefbarrigah »

No, you signed a contract to help your employer accomplish their mission or goals. Your contract does not include the revelation of how you get your job done. If you can get it done my automating tasks, that is perfect. No companies has been ever created to employ people. The mission of a company is to raise fund and make profit for it to survive and strive. No individual is indispensable. Even the CEO gets fired if she is hurting the company in any way or fashion. What is important is to invest the time you save into what is important to you like family -taking care of kids or parents, doing errands where there is no traffic, doing chores, volunteering with other organization...What is even interesting and important is to spin out an application or a company out your skills to guarantee to get additional income with your spare time and build assets with the additional income for your family. You are working for yourself in the confinements of your employer systems. The unethical matter will be lying about your process when someone asks you how you do your job or there is a company or code or rule that spells out "Do not automate your tasks or job." Introducing bugs to deceive is unethical. Introducing bugs to test the resilience or the reliability of your scripts is highly desired.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#535

Post by ClarityGuy »

observation wrote: post #495
wst_ wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think you couldn't get good salary as a developer in UK. Is IT market so low paid in there? I know at least one person who seems to be fine in there.

Yes, in comparison to the alternatives for somebody like the average programmer Trigger Warning: Micro Essay coming up and one that may irk you. I understand that and accept my view is not the conventional one. My view: I have a negative view of the industry, but I think I can justify it. Don't read on unless you want to hear about the industry's failure modes. There are many positive things about our industry and pe…

I really like your TLDR. It perfectly captures that nagging feeling I get about this business whenever I fail an accursed tech interview. No amount of informed commentary about the craft will suffice when they want somebody who knows the difference between the STL's reserve() and resize() methods.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#536

Post by rixile »

dredmorbius wrote: post #429
timthelion wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll admit, that I didn't finish it. I got to the part where he starts going on and on about the proper price of things and the relationship to the price of gold, and "the torpor of my mind rendered me not only incapable of relishing or bearing a part in any rational conversation, but of conceiving any generous, noble, or tender sentiment, and consequently of forming any just judgement concerning many even of the ord…

I encourage you to read it. Pick up a copy (or get one of the many electronic versions), and go through it a bit at a time. The book is well organised, though Smith is Very Wordy. Realise that he's building an argument, based on a great deal of observations, conversation, correspondece, lectures, and study. He's not a perfect guide, but he's a good and early one. He's also been tremendously mis-cast by a great many o…

Please, don't go without read "Human Action" by Ludwig von Mises.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#537

Post by Moru »

Natsu wrote: post #294
late2part wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"if we're being honest" Can't I assume you always are?

How many people do you know who can honestly tell you they've never ever told even a harmless lie?

Two persons actually. Both have real visible problems lying or even saying something they are not 100% sure of. If uncertain they will tell you clearly how uncertain they are so you can assess how much weight to put on the statement.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#538

Post by businesstips »

As business graduate who is not a coder, but interested in this discussion.

I believe your own moral compass will guide you, if you feel it is unethical, it most likely is.

However, I wouldn't just go back to how you did it before. I would proposition your boss about the possibility of making your job automated and how much he would pay of such a thing. Whatever you do, don't tell him that you have already done it.

Say that you might be able to do it,if the figure appeals to you. If the figure does not, keep going as you are going until they find out is my advice. Because if you have created it during work time, you have pretty much fired yourself anyway.

Have you done it with work computers during work hours? If you have, then what you have done already belongs to your company and thus your boss and they can sue you for not handing it over to them.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#539

Post by businesstips »

renlo wrote: post #59

I graduated in the recession without any real skills or an applicable / usable degree (lib arts in a language I could barely speak). The first job I got after college was for data entry where I was expected to go to an email inbox which received some automated messages with some strings in them and to copy these strings and paste them into an Excel spreadsheet. I was expected to do this for ~6 hours a day every day.…

you could have just went to competitors and sold what you had to them. Then quit and sold it to your boss as well. Once the competitors have it, your company has it to have.

Re: Is it unethical for me to not tell my employer I've automated my job?

#540

Post by sno0ks »

goosh11 wrote: post #533
observation wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, in comparison to the alternatives for somebody like the average programmer Trigger Warning: Micro Essay coming up and one that may irk you. I understand that and accept my view is not the conventional one. My view: I have a negative view of the industry, but I think I can justify it. Don't read on unless you want to hear about the industry's failure modes. There are many positive things about our industry and pe…

this is a ridiculous claim. I worked in London and with 5 years experience I was earning about 75k contracting, 10 years ago. And that was a pretty standard contract, nothing special. Your claim that I would have been better off with a blue collar job outside the capital is laughable.

There are so many variables involved that the reality is more fuzzy, and the concept certainly isn't 'laughable'.
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