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Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

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Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#351

Post by orcdork »

monfrere wrote: post #257
pvg wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it be correct to say that these two factors are what make McClure's behavior inappropriate? No, it would not be, at all. "At this point, I led him to the door and told him he needs to leave. On the way out, he pushed himself onto me to the point where I was backed into a corner, made contact to kiss me,"

I don't know if anyone will believe me that I'm asking in good faith. But I still think that sentence, as written, could describe a wide range of situations. If it went like: A: Firmly: "You need to leave. Now." B: Shoves A's body multiple times until she is in the opposite corner of the room. Presses his lips to her face without hesitation. I would be mad as A. But if the scenario went more like: A: "I'm tired and i…

You're right - no one will believe that you are asking this in good faith, because people can read words.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#352

Post by Gigablah »

skc wrote: post #347

I'm male and I find it so bizarre that men behave in this manner. But it happens so often that I wonder sometimes if I'm the one who is not normal. I love women. I am attracted to them constantly. But the thought of making sexual advances towards them when I have not received any sign of interest beyond friendship or business etc, repulses me. How hard can it be to just be nice. As men we really need to do better.

A lot of the responses in this comment section have been eye-opening, and not in a good way.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#353

Post by whiddershins »

panic wrote: post #308
whiddershins wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did email them, and I do appreciate your feedback. At this point my concern is understanding flagging criteria and your analysis of my tone was helpful. This comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14693085 Was not in the same tone and was flagged. It was an overtly conciliatory comment. When that comment was flagged, followed by the flagging user ignoring guidelines, I stopped debating. There's a problem her…

FWIW, I didn't flag that particular comment (I "vouched" for it, in fact, as well as for your reply).

This has been a massive miscommunication then.

When you wrote "that's why I flagged the comments" it didn't occur to me that you meant both the comments you were referring to: mine and khazhoux's.

Instead I misinterpreted that as both of my comments.

Which frustrated me because I felt my second comment was not similar to the first, and then I couldn't understand why you continued the discussion on a comment you had just flagged.

Now that I see what went on, I do appreciate you sharing your view as to why you flagged the first one and think it's basically all good from my pov.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#354

Post by [deleted] »

panic wrote: post #308
whiddershins wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did email them, and I do appreciate your feedback. At this point my concern is understanding flagging criteria and your analysis of my tone was helpful. This comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14693085 Was not in the same tone and was flagged. It was an overtly conciliatory comment. When that comment was flagged, followed by the flagging user ignoring guidelines, I stopped debating. There's a problem her…

FWIW, I didn't flag that particular comment (I "vouched" for it, in fact, as well as for your reply).

[deleted]

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#355

Post by Mz »

StevePerkins wrote: post #338
Mz wrote: post #296

I will note a pattern I have noticed: In situations where men make initial inquiries and the woman turns it down, but does not cut all contact with him forevermore, men seem to pretty consistently interpret this as "she actually likes me and is playing hard to get." The problem for women with careers is that walking away entirely from a powerful man would mean walking away from all kinds of professional settings wher…

A good point, but a grossly over-generalized one. Men "not taking no for an answer" after rejection is the exception, not the general norm, even if it's over represented in the VC scandal. That's why it's a scandal.

I think you are misunderstanding my remarks in some way. Nowhere did I use the phrase "not taking no for an answer."

I am not talking about normal situations where it is possible for clear, unambiguous communication to take place. I am talking about a gray zone that makes it inherently challenging. I have written about this before:

http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-gray-zon...

And I am saying we need to work at fostering a culture where people in power default to an assumption that if there is any doubt, they need to err on the side of assuming "This is about business, not romance. Period." Because my firsthand experience and pieces like the one under discussion agree that, all too often, a woman just can't seem to adequately signal "romance is NOT on the table here" and also remain on good working terms with a man in power. That is exactly the point I am trying to make. It has nothing to do with asserting that men don't take no for an answer.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#356

Post by whiddershins »

pvg wrote: post #348
whiddershins wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did email them, and I do appreciate your feedback. At this point my concern is understanding flagging criteria and your analysis of my tone was helpful. This comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14693085 Was not in the same tone and was flagged. It was an overtly conciliatory comment. When that comment was flagged, followed by the flagging user ignoring guidelines, I stopped debating. There's a problem her…

That comment was eminently flaggable for being unrelated meta-discussion - it's mostly about you, has nothing to do with the post and is bound to generate a pointless meta-thread. The guidelines and endless moderation comments specifically ask you not to do this.

Fair enough.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#357

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

gizmo wrote: post #332
qubex wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don't understand is why she kept drinking what he was pouring. ( This is absolutely not a ”she was looking for it” remark ... I'm just curious why in her initially sober state she had less incentive to avoid risk than when she was a little inebriated. His behaviour is absolutely nothing but despicable.)

Because drinking a bit too much during a party is no big deal. Remember the part where she was surprised to find herself alone with Dave? That's when she suddenly realized what was going on. (By the way: any analysis on how the victim of abuse made sub-optimal decisions is _always_ victim blaming, even if you add a disclaimer stating otherwise.)

> By the way: any analysis on how the victim of abuse made sub-optimal decisions is _always_ victim blaming, even if you add a disclaimer stating otherwise.

If I leave my car running with the keys in it in a bad part of town, and my car gets stolen, the thief is still totally to blame, but don't you think there are better precautions I could have taken? Is there a way to discuss that without immediately shutting it down as victim blaming?

FWIW, I do NOT think Ms. Yeo did anything resembling the car key example above. I think everything she described (having drinks in a group with friends and business partners) is absolutely something anyone should be able to do without fear of being on the receiving end of what Mr. McClure did. But I still think there should be a way to have honest conversations about taking precautions against crime, that we for some reason think are acceptable to have in all other discussions of crime EXCEPT sexual assault.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#358

Post by tnone »

tnone wrote: post #349
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN isn't an ideological battleground. In general, it's for whatever gratifies intellectual curiosity. The flagged comments may have contributed information, but most of them share a common trait: they're incendiary. The way to introduce a controversial idea on HN is to be substantive and neutral. It's not easy to do. People are generally passionate about their points of view, and I've been guilty of this myself. But…

On this topic, it absolutely is. Whenever these threads happen, they go one way or the other. If the all-genders-equal, non-feminist side swings the discussion, the entire thread disappears off the front page, inexplicably sitting at position 500+ with no flagged indicator. The lambdaconf debacle comes to mind, but it's hardly the only example. If the feminist, women-are-victims-side swings the discussion, the thread…

Here, let me tell you a story. It's past 3am in the big city, I'm returning from a night out. While riding up the elevator, i can't help but notice the guy I'm sharing it with is a sobbing mess. I've never seen him before, but he gets out on my floor and heads in the opposite direction. I go inside, but as I get ready for bed, someone bangs loudly and repeatedly on my door. It's the guy. I hesitate opening. He knocks some more. Worried something bad happened to him, I let him in and ask what's wrong. He's locked out. He quickly gets into a tirade, about how his girlfriend broke up with him. That's why he's drunk. He doesn't know where his keys are but probably left them at a friend's. I feel somewhat cheated for my sympathy, having assumed far worse. Instead it's just self inflicted misery.

I listen for a bit but try to make it clear I'd like to go to bed. Spotting a pipe on the coffee table, he suggests we light up instead and I let him crash. I firmly decline. I decide this person is the master of their own destiny, ask them to leave, and suggest they grab a cab or bus to their friend's place. Against much protest, I get him out the door and feel immense relief.

If I'd been a woman, just saying I'd felt unsafe would've sufficed. I could've just called the police about this dangerous man banging on my door.

Of course, it wasn't a guy knocking. It was a girl. She was drunk out of her mind, ready to get even more wasted, and she made it clear I was the bad guy for not immediately considering her problems mine.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#359

Post by e40 »

skc wrote: post #347

I'm male and I find it so bizarre that men behave in this manner. But it happens so often that I wonder sometimes if I'm the one who is not normal. I love women. I am attracted to them constantly. But the thought of making sexual advances towards them when I have not received any sign of interest beyond friendship or business etc, repulses me. How hard can it be to just be nice. As men we really need to do better.

I have felt this way my whole life. I'm just starting to think the same, that I'm the abnormal one. I had assumed that we, as a society, were on the downhill side of women's equality. Then Sessions became the AG and I watched women testifying in front of Congress treated like it was 1950.

I think all that progress we made over the last 50 years was partly in my head.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#360

Post by [deleted] »

1123581321 wrote: post #283
novia wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Often the counter-argument to this is that it feels artificial, unnatural, and it will definitely kill the mood. So I want to preemptively address it. When a guy asks before touching me, and of course I'm already interested, it makes me melt. It is so sexy and it definitely improves the mood. I just want to point to myself as one data-point. If you're having trouble believing it, imagine that a hot swimsuit model wal…

Sorry, but this doesn't address a valid subjective feeling that many people have. Nonverbal communication can certainly be more exciting than verbal for people. But in a workplace setting, it's worth giving that up in order to avoid problems. I think it's better to explicitly acknowledge that is a trade-off for many people than to brush legitimate preferences and feelings aside. (Writing this as someone who is happil…

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