Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness” • Hacker News Board

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#331

Post by CPLX » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 11:45 AM UTC

qubex wrote: post #327

jmcgough wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably some mix of a lack of impulse control and enjoying the chase. He meets an attractive woman and pursues her, without stopping to think whether or not what he's doing is inappropriate or even assault. Edit: I just finished reading the article. I hope this comment doesn't seem like I'm dismissing him as "Dave being Dave", because what he did was horrible. Plying her with copious amounts of alcohol and then…

What I don't understand is why she kept drinking what he was pouring. ( This is absolutely not a ”she was looking for it” remark ... I'm just curious why in her initially sober state she had less incentive to avoid risk than when she was a little inebriated. His behaviour is absolutely nothing but despicable.)

Have you ever spent a lot of time around people you look up to and respect professionally and/or who are a bit famous? You get flustered and want to be liked and accepted. It's natural, and the burden is on the person in the more powerful position not to exploit that.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#332

Post by gizmo » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 12:03 PM UTC

qubex wrote: post #327

jmcgough wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably some mix of a lack of impulse control and enjoying the chase. He meets an attractive woman and pursues her, without stopping to think whether or not what he's doing is inappropriate or even assault. Edit: I just finished reading the article. I hope this comment doesn't seem like I'm dismissing him as "Dave being Dave", because what he did was horrible. Plying her with copious amounts of alcohol and then…

What I don't understand is why she kept drinking what he was pouring. ( This is absolutely not a ”she was looking for it” remark ... I'm just curious why in her initially sober state she had less incentive to avoid risk than when she was a little inebriated. His behaviour is absolutely nothing but despicable.)

Because drinking a bit too much during a party is no big deal. Remember the part where she was surprised to find herself alone with Dave? That's when she suddenly realized what was going on.

(By the way: any analysis on how the victim of abuse made sub-optimal decisions is _always_ victim blaming, even if you add a disclaimer stating otherwise.)

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#333

Post by twobyfour » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 12:08 PM UTC

orthoganol wrote: post #254

ctvo wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do they get thrown in? Outside of internet forums where men come up with absurd situations to justify their feelings of prosecution, who is exactly reporting co-workers in the Valley for too much eye contact? You're in a comment thread about sexual assault for reference.

Oh c'mon, it's a thread about solutions too, which was the focus of my original comment; I intended it to be "Thanks for a solution that is helpful to guys anxious about all of this," not a detailed discussion about the validity of those feelings or anxiety. If you insist on the latter, This has nothing to do with "men forums," thanks. People I know working in tech actually think holding eye contact is harassment. I…

Imagine a 300-lb biker dude at your workplace seemed to hang near you a lot. Made a lot of eye contact. Stood maybe a few inches too close. Seemed to have an interest in you. And didn't seem to notice your non-verbal "go away" signals like walking away, turning your back, stepping away to regain your personal space, etc.

The guy clearly has an interest in you. There's nothing specific you can accuse him of, but he makes you uncomfortable. By persisting despite your attempts at rebuff he's implied that he doesn't respect your boundaries.

Maybe it'll turn out that he'll leave you alone entirely. He hasn't done any one thing you can accuse him of. But he's giving off a "vibe" (which is an inarticulate way of saying "engaging in subtle behaviors") that in your past experience have been a prelude to anything from uninvited touching to stalking to physical attack. Thus his presence makes you anxious and interferes with your ability to do work because your brain is in constant fear/alert mode.

Is this a tenable situation?

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#334

Post by FeepingCreature » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 12:13 PM UTC

hyperdunc wrote: post #220

orthoganol wrote: post #171

I like it - the all or nothing approach is terrifying as a guy, and defining levels of inappropriateness with exact descriptions of actions is very helpful for those who are freaked out they are going to unwittingly harass someone they are attracted to even just acting naturally. I'm hopefully not belittling the recipients of undesired advances of VC assholes like McClure, but I hope it's also not wrong to say these…

It would be great if people could just follow a maxim like "don't be a creep", but clearly that's impossible in today's culture and so some official guidelines do need to be adopted by some organizations. However, Level A and Level B outlined near the bottom of the article takes it too far. Treating people like children is not going to solve anything, it's just going to promote further awkwardness, fear and resentmen…

"Oh, I was thinking I was gonna be a creep but now that you told me that I totally know to avoid that."

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#335

Post by gadders » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 12:35 PM UTC

As YC has a very strong policy in regards to sexual harrassment, are these incidents going to affect how they deal with other VCs (either individuals or companies)?

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#336

Post by unholywars » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 12:46 PM UTC

She's an ambitious girl. You have to wonder how much of this is just piling on the public flogging to get more attention for herself?

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#337

Post by jpetso » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 12:59 PM UTC

enriquto wrote: post #315

grey-area wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now, this is extremely vague and can mean anything. He was already going out, but she was in the way, and the exit door was on a corner?...This can be construed as assault or as a normal goodbye when leaving the house of somebody. A normal goodbye is not forced on someone who has repeatedly said no to advances. The account was really quite clear, far clearer than McClure's apology. And yet you feel the need to make u…

I do not believe the author is lying. I honestly do not understand the relevance problem that she is reporting. She cried after an awkward interaction? This happened to me all the time when I was younger, no big deal really.

The "awkward interaction" here is being physically intimidated by someone who doesn't respect being told No, who is big enough to overpower you and who is in a position. Of power with clear conflict of interest.

It's great that you wouldn't be terrified in this kind of situation. It's also important to know that not everyone feels the same way that you do, and that it's entirely reasonable and expected for someone to be scared shitless given the situation described. It's not their fault to feel that way, and they're not the ones who should "grow a pair". Everyone here needs to make sure that physical intimidation doesn't happen, and if you're not sure about whether it's wanted, get a clear approval before you storm onto someone.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#338

Post by StevePerkins » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 1:00 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #296

I will note a pattern I have noticed: In situations where men make initial inquiries and the woman turns it down, but does not cut all contact with him forevermore, men seem to pretty consistently interpret this as "she actually likes me and is playing hard to get." The problem for women with careers is that walking away entirely from a powerful man would mean walking away from all kinds of professional settings wher…

A good point, but a grossly over-generalized one. Men "not taking no for an answer" after rejection is the exception, not the general norm, even if it's over represented in the VC scandal. That's why it's a scandal.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#339

Post by danso » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 1:02 PM UTC

enriquto wrote: post #315

grey-area wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now, this is extremely vague and can mean anything. He was already going out, but she was in the way, and the exit door was on a corner?...This can be construed as assault or as a normal goodbye when leaving the house of somebody. A normal goodbye is not forced on someone who has repeatedly said no to advances. The account was really quite clear, far clearer than McClure's apology. And yet you feel the need to make u…

I do not believe the author is lying. I honestly do not understand the relevance problem that she is reporting. She cried after an awkward interaction? This happened to me all the time when I was younger, no big deal really.

Maybe she was crying because she felt the encounter was more than awkward. Seeing as it she believes it constituted assault, she may have been emotional because she had worried that it could have become much worse for her, McClure being bigger and stronger than her, and also likely inebriated. She was probBly emotional, based on her account, because she was put in a terrible situation where she had to keep silent for the sake of her company.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#340

Post by wiredfool » Tue, Jul 04, 2017, 1:14 PM UTC

morgante wrote: post #285

emmab wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Asking permission before touching people, and not arguing when they say no goes a long way. Want to be able to touch someone without asking every time? Ask them permission for that! "Hey is it ok if I touch your arms and back without asking in the future?"

> Asking permission before touching people, and not arguing when they say no goes a long way. Honestly, that's just not realistic. Subtle touching is a key part of rapport and bonding (even in a platonic setting between men). It would be extremely bizarre if after a woman laughs at a joke I stopped and said "is it okay if I gently touch you on the elbow for a second as you laugh?" I'm a huge fan of consent (ex. I alm…

I find 'touchy' people to be really creepy. They ignore the body language of "go the [word] away before I find something to run through you". But you say that in a workplace and people look at you funny.

It's not bonding. It's a power thing, I think. "I can touch you, but if you call it out, then you're the one who is reacting and being 'sensitive'". (reversed, obv).

You may think it's an important part of platonic settings between men, but.. eh, stay away from me.

Accidentally brushing someone in a crowded bar is a red herring. (Unless it's an 'accident'.) That's completely different than invading someone's space to touch their elbow.