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Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

cherylyeoh.com

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Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#291

Post by DanBC »

Zikes wrote: post #288

Every time I get flagged for saying something reasonable but unpopular, I get so frustrated I just put my HN account away for weeks or months. I want to participate in tolerant, reasoned, actionable, fair discussions, especially when they're regarding the industry I'm trying to make a career in. HN is not the place for that discussion. Sure, the discussion will happen here. Things will happen. But it won't be toleran…

> Just ban me now.

Mods should honour these requests, because not doing so leads to bad things.

But until they do, you can set noprocast to a large number and then scramble your password.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#292

Post by enriquto »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #94

As the father of three daughters I always cringe a bit when I read things like this. Thanks Cheryl for sharing your story, and men please remember it isn't how you feel about whether or not an action was appropriate or inappropriate, it is how they feel about it.

As a father of a daughter and a son, I disagree strongly with what you say. Feelings are completely irrelevant here.

Asking to sleep with someone and trying to kiss her, and then leaving when being told "no", is not sexual assault; regardless of how either person felt about that. You can consider it awkward, ridiculous, or just normal human sexual behaviour. But it is not by any means assault.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#293

Post by beedogs »

dang wrote: post #289
beedogs wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My comment was hardly "abusive". And this is probably the second time in ten years that I've been called out for a comment I've made here, which is hardly a "ton of slack" or "more warnings than most." Not that it surprises me. I'll never forget this is the site that shadow-banned me for saying the world "needs more Snowdens".

It's at least the fourth. But why did you need more than one? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13568283 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12216126 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10309353 > I'll never forget this is the site that shadow-banned me for saying the world "needs more Snowdens". I call this kind of comment the "linkless martyr": the romantic tale of a noble freethinker cruelly repressed by the…

> I propose to call this category of comment the "linkless martyr": the romantic tale (somehow always the same) of a noble freethinker cruelly repressed by the mods, always offering full interpretation for the reader, yet mysteriously including any pointer to the original source, where people could decide for themselves what happened. This is a classic of the genre. I feel confident making fun of it because the idea that we ever banned an HN user for Snowden advocacy is silly

Well, obviously you didn't read enough of my "genuinely nasty comments" to find it, but here's the comment that got me banned:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6183189

And here's where I figured it out and asked why:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6190847

Feel free and check the history on that first one if you don't believe me.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#294

Post by michaelmrose »

The obvious answer to avoiding workplace issues seems to be never mix business with pleasure.

If the person who you proposition only has to consider the singular question of whether or not they are interested in you their decision will be natural and unforced.

Anyone in a workplace has to constantly consider how this interaction will help or harm future prospects and even if no power differential exists may feel pressured. Many people are weak and may feel dissatisfied or put upon, many are shitty at expressing themselves, asserting themselves, or even at analyzing their own feelings. Then people have to work together after inevitably some of those interactions go bad.

People express this issue as its some complex minefield. It's easy. Just don't do it. Get a hobby and meet people there.

Go to work do whatever you are paid to do and find romance on your own time.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#295

Post by sillysaurus3 »

whiddershins wrote: post #284
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're referring to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14692957 . This was a tough one. I ultimately decided not to vouch it, and I'd like to try to explain why. It doesn't have anything to do with the content or my own feelings on the matter, but rather the way in which the idea was presented. I agree that it was in good faith, and it was also substantive. But it's not really neutral: "But seriously? Do I…

I think your feedback is great. Also, I wasn't meaning to imply anyone should cut someone slack for behaving poorly while drunk. I was saying drunk people can be a menace, kinda like muggers. But although I've been mugged it doesn't exactly haunt me so much as make me cautious in certain situations. But whatever maybe my whole idea was stupid. But why was my subsequent comment also flagged. And now I'm getting downvo…

I wouldn't read too much into it. When users see a flagged comment, they're more inclined to flag subsequent comments of the same tone. Saying that you didn't read half the reply didn't really help matters, plus it was very energetic overall. Energy tends to be met with energy in the opposite direction, which tends to spark flamewars.

In general though, it's better to email hn@ycombinator.com with concerns about the site rather than comment about it. They're very responsive.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#296

Post by Mz »

I will note a pattern I have noticed:

In situations where men make initial inquiries and the woman turns it down, but does not cut all contact with him forevermore, men seem to pretty consistently interpret this as "she actually likes me and is playing hard to get." The problem for women with careers is that walking away entirely from a powerful man would mean walking away from all kinds of professional settings where she is likely to run into him. Cutting him out of her life entirely would be career suicide.

The one message we really need to get powerful men to get is this:

Working women are talking to you at all for the exact same reason working men are talking to you. And it isn't because they think you are hot. They are trying to make a business deal or further a career goal, not fulfill your wildest fantasies.

I think this is why so many men persist in saying things like "I just misread the situation." And we will keep hearing that until it is the cultural norm for men to assume that women they work with are there to work, and that's it.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#297

Post by nnfy »

QuadrupleA wrote: post #222

The mass flagging / censoring of comments people disagree with below seems a little petty, I'm curious what the original posts are. I'd rather hear a dumb opinion and make my own choice.

I had the gaul to cite personal experience as reason to legitamitely question the narrative, as there was something I didn't understand.

Rather than take this as an opportunity to bring someone onto their side, I was met with a barrage of down votes and flaggers for doubting the wrong narrative.

This kind of community censorship hinders progress.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#298

Post by Zikes »

DanBC wrote: post #291
Zikes wrote: post #288

Every time I get flagged for saying something reasonable but unpopular, I get so frustrated I just put my HN account away for weeks or months. I want to participate in tolerant, reasoned, actionable, fair discussions, especially when they're regarding the industry I'm trying to make a career in. HN is not the place for that discussion. Sure, the discussion will happen here. Things will happen. But it won't be toleran…

> Just ban me now. Mods should honour these requests, because not doing so leads to bad things. But until they do, you can set noprocast to a large number and then scramble your password.

I may be tilted, but I don't intend to intentionally break the site rules just to force a ban. It'd just undermine the point I'm trying to make about wanting to have a fair and reasonable discussion.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#299

Post by rectang »

enriquto wrote: post #292
ChuckMcM wrote: post #94

As the father of three daughters I always cringe a bit when I read things like this. Thanks Cheryl for sharing your story, and men please remember it isn't how you feel about whether or not an action was appropriate or inappropriate, it is how they feel about it.

As a father of a daughter and a son, I disagree strongly with what you say. Feelings are completely irrelevant here. Asking to sleep with someone and trying to kiss her, and then leaving when being told "no", is not sexual assault; regardless of how either person felt about that. You can consider it awkward, ridiculous, or just normal human sexual behaviour. But it is not by any means assault.

> Asking to sleep with someone and trying to kiss her, and then leaving when being told "no", is not sexual assault;

That's not an accurate summary of her account. He'd been rebuffed repeatedly and clearly before forcing her into a corner and trying to kiss her. While the exact legal definition of "sexual assault" varies depending on the jurisdiction, if it came down to a court decision I don't like his chances.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#300

Post by jaggederest »

Banthum wrote: post #177
jaggederest wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Get a high priced call girl, go on a sex site and get a woman who wants what you want. I mean I used to be in a band and it was easy to have a woman in nearly every city you could call when you feel lonely. That's not the point. The point is precisely the power and coercion. Paying someone or finding someone like-minded doesn't hit that button anywhere near the same way that assault and blackmail does. If you're st…

People say this all the time, but is there any actual rigorous evidence or argument for it? As far as I can tell it's just a way to demonize and dehumanize a group of really unpopular people in order to feel better about taking retribution against them. Comparable to saying, "She didn't murder her kids because of depression, but because she wanted them and her husband to suffer. The pain itself is the goal." So is th…

I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who pays attention to the way good people are seduced into bad actions by the exercise of power beyond what's appropriate.

I do this precisely because I want to avoid situations where my behavior and viewpoint will be compromised by the level of authority I wield.

The very point I'm attempting to make, anyway, is that if you hand even the best humans inordinate power they will abuse it. That's how power is. It's not about the people - it's about the power structures we inhabit.

Reference the milgram experiment, the stanford prison experiment, whatever you like. They're not definitive, by any means, but they show you what is possible.

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