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The capital sharp S in now part of the official German orthography

typography.guru

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Re: The capital sharp S in now part of the official German orthography

#181
post #8

And how do I type thiß capital sharp S? The Unicode input seems a little complicated :-/ CTRL + SHIFT + u1E9E = ẞ

On a Unix-like system with X11 and a compose key, I believe Compose + S + S should work (away from my computer, so can't test).

Do tell, which key is this "Compose"?

Re: The capital sharp S in now part of the official German orthography

#183
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English seems to manage okay with no 'special' latin characters.

What a coincidence that English manages fine with just the letters in ASCII. Seriously though, what definition of "special Latin characters" are you using? Italian does just fine with fewer...

G, J, K, U, W, Y, and Z are all characters that aren't used in Latin (in the case of G, J, U, and W, because they didn't exist; in the case of Y, it is used in Greek words but doesn't represent a sound that's possible in Latin; I'm not sure if Z was used in Greek words or not. K is just a Greek letter -- since it represents the sound written with C in Latin, it is never used at all).

Re: The capital sharp S in now part of the official German orthography

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s actually the worst thing you can do. That actually violates the relevant DIN standards for transcription. You have to replace Ä with AE, Ö with OE, Ü with UE. You won’t find a person named Müller under Muller in any database, especially not digital databases. For electronic forms, always use äöüß, or, if the system happens to be an American one (the only form I’ve ever had to fill where I couldn’t use äöüß was…

Do people outside Germany even care about DIN standards?

The machine-readable part of the German passport uses this DIN standard, so to avoid having to explain German orthography to some suspicious border guard, you'd better make sure you use it.

Re: The capital sharp S in now part of the official German orthography

#185
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Annoyingly, English uses "th" for two rather different phonemes: þ ("thing") and ð ("this"). Icelandic maintains this useful distinction. I feel like English spelling would need at least half a dozen more letters to disambiguate. As it is, English is actually a not great choice for a global language because it's so unphonetic.

> As it is, English is actually a not great choice for a global language because it's so unphonetic. English would be a more-useful global language — in that it'd be easier for non-native speakers to learn and use it — if we pedants who secretly look down on anything less than "proper" spelling and grammar (and I'm embarrassed to be one of them) would get over ourselves and accept simpler, easier forms as they natura…

Those are all examples of problems learners hit only when they've successfully learned English. By the time a non-native speaker has to worry about subjunctive or less vs. fewer, they've already reached a level of proficiency that allows them to communicate fluently despite an occasional grammatical gaffe.

Before reaching that level, however, they have to deal with truly maddening stuff like how to pronounce word like "read" or "tear" or "close", or why it's "an interesting little book" instead of "a little interesting book", or why you can see a movie but you're not "seeing TV", or the fact that both "thir-tee" and "thir-dee" mean 30.

Re: The capital sharp S in now part of the official German orthography

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually a ligature for "sz" - at least it used to be. You probably won't find many german words that have an actual "sz" in them.

It's more apparent if you look at the long s (ſ) which has since fallen out of favour. If you squint and your font permitting, ſz should look more like ß.

Or, even more similar, ſƷ. (Which is long s (ſ) + capital ezh (Ʒ))

Re: The capital sharp S in now part of the official German orthography

#187
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are tons according to http://www.wordmine.info/Search.aspx?slang=de&stype=words-wi... FRAKTIONSZWANG FREIHANDELSZONE KONFISZIEREN [...] A lot of them are combined, but still quite a few 'regular' ones

Here is the full list of non compounded words containing an "sz". Abszeß - Adoleszenz - Disziplin - Eszett - Faszie - Faszination - Fluoreszenz - Koaleszenz - Konfiszierung - lasziv - Lumineszenz - Obszönität - omniszient - Oszillation - phosphoresziere - Plebiszit - Proszenium - Rekognoszierung - Rekonvaleszent - Szene - viszeral Most of these actually are of latin origin. My favorite is obviously "Abszeß" - probabl…

It did, 20 years ago ;)

Nowadays it's written Abszess as the e is short.

Re: The capital sharp S in now part of the official German orthography

#188
post #5

As a german, I see this as a step in the wrong direction. The sharp S is a PITA to begin with, so I'd rather abolish it completely. Now there's a whole bunch of complications coming from this - how do I type this? To type lowercase "ß", I press the key above "p" (in the same position as with qwerty) and "ü" (to the right of it), which will do "?" when pressed together with shift. So do we move "?" somewhere else? QWE…

A language should not be optimized for easy keyboard typing. The power of German comes through it's richness and beauty of expression, including ß. Downgrading this for easy typing would be the wrong direction.

Re: The capital sharp S in now part of the official German orthography

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is important but you are marking the wrong thing, you could make it Māsse and Masse if you really cared.

Or Maesse, which is closer to what it sounds like anyway.

Which would be equivalent to Mässe, though. And then you'd have another letter you may want to abolish.

Re: The capital sharp S in now part of the official German orthography

#190
post #68
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is using "ss" instead of ß in German any worse from using "th" instead of þ in English?

Annoyingly, English uses "th" for two rather different phonemes: þ ("thing") and ð ("this"). Icelandic maintains this useful distinction. I feel like English spelling would need at least half a dozen more letters to disambiguate. As it is, English is actually a not great choice for a global language because it's so unphonetic.

At least the "th" has close function in "thing" and "this". A non-native speaker wouldn't even notice the difference.

But don't expect a non-native speaker to pronounce "pothole" correctly...

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