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Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

cherylyeoh.com

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Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#201
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Censorship' has become more pejorative than informative, but you're right that users are downvoting and flagging comments; I think pretty fairly. Wherever moderators have intervened (in any way that affects comment visibility), we've posted comments saying so. That goes for the previous threads too. Not every kind of comment is welcome here. HN is trying for higher-quality discussion. (Trying and failing, of course.…

Every comment I've seen so far that has been dead or flagged down had these two properties: 1. Honestly attempting to contribute new information and views to the conversation, or asking new questions. 2. Opinion or assumptions would be considered immoral from a certain (currently dominant) point of view. It seems pretty clear to me that "high-quality" is being conflated with "reinforces my moral convictions" or "upho…

We're being bludgeoned by the hammer of sexism, in a discussion about the perils of sexism in the industry, on the foremost discussion board in the industry.

The irony.

I've submitted a formal request to have my account banned. I'll not be part of this ineffectual echo chamber any longer.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#202

I like it - the all or nothing approach is terrifying as a guy, and defining levels of inappropriateness with exact descriptions of actions is very helpful for those who are freaked out they are going to unwittingly harass someone they are attracted to even just acting naturally. I'm hopefully not belittling the recipients of undesired advances of VC assholes like McClure, but I hope it's also not wrong to say these…

I have to agree... there are absolutely shades of gray. I've always had a personal policy of if you ask someone out, and they decline, give it a while, then ask a second time, in case of a timing issue, then never bring it up again.

Though, I'm not one to force myself onto someone like that, we all have feelings, emotions and desires. It's not always easy to read a given situation. And the those outlined in TFA are definitely over the line.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#203
I've seen a few comments on this and articles like this to the effect of "so any time you proposition a woman it could be assault?" and I think it's worth responding to that idea in general.

Yes, there is generally an expectation that men initiate romance, and that is an unfair burden both on men (who have to do the propositioning) and women (who have to decline unwanted propositions). For game-theoretic reasons, this is difficult to change, but it is changing slowly.

In the mean time, restrictions on how to initiate disproportionately affect men, and a lack of restrictions disproportionately affects women. Even more so in situations of gender imbalance (look up "Petrie Multiplier" for more on this). I believe it's for this reason that some men are resistant to "err on the safe side" type policies; as long as they are expected to initiate, they can't succeed without taking risks.

But it's impossible to address this without also including the effect of power imbalance. Even in a world where women initiate 100% of the time, men would in almost all cases still be more physically powerful, and sometimes hold other kinds of social or institutional power. This power can be used to coerce, assault or rape but, even if it isn't, the consequences of a power disparity can be an implicit part of the equation (cf "I hope you can see your way clear to letting Flynn go").

So, what was wrong about Dave McClure's behaviour with Sarah Kunst? Not propositioning her at all, but propositioning her in the context of a power imbalance as a potential employer that made it more difficult for her to say no. Worse still, "I was getting confused figuring out whether to hire you or hit on you" makes that relationship explicit.

And what was wrong about Dave McClure's behaviour with Cheryl Yeoh? Not propositioning her at all, but propositioning her in the context of a power imbalance as a physically stronger man alone with her in her bedroom, and then forcing himself on her when she said no. I repeat: he could only have done this because he was physically stronger, and even if he didn't, the possibility was there.

So to anyone who's wondering if this means men hitting on women is now outlawed, I hope this can provide a healthy framework for thinking about it. It's okay to hit on people, but avoid doing so in situations with a power imbalance that could mean there are consequences for saying no. And also if they do say no don't assault them.

Unfortunately, as a man, you probably have the ability to physically overpower most women if you want. Hopefully you don't want, but it's worth considering that you have that ability, and she may not know whether you're going to use it.

For a shorter and funnier version of this line of thinking, I suggest this clip from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yUafzOXHPE

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#204

I am seeing an enormous percentage of comments here flagged, including one of mine which is a first for me on this site, or any site. Upon trying to figure out what's going on I think we need a meta-instruction for comments here? Like, perhaps the intention is to keep comments focused more on the general problem of sexual harassment in the industry and to not start making a bunch of assertions regarding the specifics…

First of all, let me just say I don't think your comment reflects poorly on you as a person. Your perspective is very common, and it's easy to accept it uncritically. It's interesting that you mention khazhoux's comment, because I think they come from largely the same place, and I flagged both of them for similar reasons.

I flagged these comments because, though you probably don't realize you're doing this, you're providing tools for abusers to justify and minimize their abuse. Obviously flagging isn't going to solve the problem on its own, but maybe if I go into more detail it will help a little more.

Both comments focus on what their authors imagine themselves doing in a similar situation:

> …I never drink more than a wee amount (one glass max) when I'm with co-workers in any sort of work setting.

> …I can't imagine it haunting anyone for years, especially not someone who has the strength of will to start a company.

Then they generalize their imagined behavior to what all people should do or should be able to do:

> But on general principle, he shouldn't have gotten drunk (which I assume he was??), nor she.

> Just because someone else did something wrong is no reason to carry it with you for years.

Who are these comments being written for? In both cases, the person being imagined is the person being abused. It's possible to read these as advice for people potentially facing abuse: don't drink, don't dwell on the past.

There are a few problems with this interpretation. First of all, they take abuse as a fixed part of the world that we just need to deal with: "Because in my world people do that." The conclusion is that people being abused need to change their behavior to avoid it. But the truth is that the abusers are the ones who need to change their behavior.

The second problem is that the advice doesn't work. People are abused whether they drink or not. Memories and thoughts have a way of surfacing whether you intentionally dwell on them or not. If you can't imagine an event haunting Cheryl for years after she has explicitly told you that one has, the problem is with your imagination, not her experiences.

So as advice, these comments are relatively weak. Is there a sense in which they have a stronger function? Let's see:

"I never drink more than a wee amount" isn't excusing Dave's behavior directly. But it makes a strong implication -- if you do drink more than that, you're less responsible for what happens. Do you think Dave kept pouring scotch into her glass on accident? He knows society has a tendency to excuse behavior from a drunk person that they'd never accept from someone sober.

"I can't imagine it haunting anyone for years" doesn't mean Dave's behavior was inconsequential. But it makes a strong implication -- that the consequences of his behavior would be much less if Cheryl didn't make such a big deal out of it.

Both of these perspectives enable abuse. Abusers intentionally use alcohol to provide cover for their behavior. Even when they were planning to do it all along. Dave McClure abused his power to put Cheryl Yeoh into a position she "shouldn't" be in -- so he could turn around and use the very fact she was in such a position to minimize people's reaction to his abuse!

Then, when she admits how much the abuse affected her, he relies on comments like yours to remind us that his role in this was incredibly minor -- just one event that probably lasted less than a minute. The real abuse was just in her head. I don't think you would put it this bluntly, but that's the story the abuser is hoping you take away.

That is to say, the primary function of comments like these is not actually providing advice to people who might be abused. Following this advice will not help them. Whether intentionally or not, their primary function ends up as tools that abusers use to justify and minimize their abuse. That's why I flagged them -- to take these tools out of abusers' hands in whatever small way I can.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#205
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there are tons of apologists in the valley. Men who also harass women like McClure and feel they're entitled to it, especially against women of color.

The overwhelming majority of HN votes don't come from "the valley". And to the extent we have data on this the geographical trend is probably opposite to what you're suggesting.

There's really been a considerable change in HN in the past few years. A couple of years ago, a thread like this would have been 100% apologists and victim-blaming, laced with a heavy dose of outright misogyny. It would have been flagged off the the front page in minutes. Today, the threads are much better with only a small amount of that.

I'm unclear whether this is because a) Silicon Valley is changing b) the user composition of HN is changing or c) the misogynist types are just feeling less confident. Regardless of the reason, it's a change for the better.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every comment I've seen so far that has been dead or flagged down had these two properties: 1. Honestly attempting to contribute new information and views to the conversation, or asking new questions. 2. Opinion or assumptions would be considered immoral from a certain (currently dominant) point of view. It seems pretty clear to me that "high-quality" is being conflated with "reinforces my moral convictions" or "upho…

HN isn't an ideological battleground. In general, it's for whatever gratifies intellectual curiosity. The flagged comments may have contributed information, but most of them share a common trait: they're incendiary. The way to introduce a controversial idea on HN is to be substantive and neutral. It's not easy to do. People are generally passionate about their points of view, and I've been guilty of this myself. But…

>The way to introduce a controversial idea on HN is to be substantive and neutral.

I agree in principle. But standards should be applied the same way to all comments with regard to viewpoints.

What I'm seeing is that the same standards aren't being applied to different viewpoints.

An orthodox viewpoint can be written casually, unsourced, tinged with moral judgment, etc, and still get away unflagged and not downvoted. An unorthodox viewpoint will get ripped apart on the tiniest error, missing source, or mis-chosen wordage.

I understand people are tribal and some just want to suppress dissent and maintain the power of their orthodoxy. But I also hope a place like HN can rise above such tribalism.

(regarding downvote complaints I don't disagree with the general policy.. if you're referring to my comment you replied to here I didn't intend to complain, only to point out the irony and perhaps try to cue some downvoters to consider what they're doing from a further remove).

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#207
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a few) rotten apples. Wow, that's really incredible optimism. I'd be more than happy if there was a 50/50 split between the kinds of apples but I fear that it is more along the lines of 20/80 or worse based on what I see and hear around me when no women are within earshot.

If you're aware of harassment and assault of women, please contact the appropriate authorities. It's not normal and you shouldn't accept it as such.

At the workplace, the supposed appropriate authority is Human Resources. The obvious problem with this is that since Human Resources' role is literally to treat the humans at or attempting to be in, the company as resources, during a case of sexual harassment their systematically correct behavior is to weigh the assessed value of all parties involved, predict the value deltas for each possible way to resolve the case, and implement the resolution with the predicted net highest value to the company.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#209
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The overwhelming majority of HN votes don't come from "the valley". And to the extent we have data on this the geographical trend is probably opposite to what you're suggesting.

There's really been a considerable change in HN in the past few years. A couple of years ago, a thread like this would have been 100% apologists and victim-blaming, laced with a heavy dose of outright misogyny. It would have been flagged off the the front page in minutes. Today, the threads are much better with only a small amount of that. I'm unclear whether this is because a) Silicon Valley is changing b) the user…

I have to credit 'dang and 'sctb's public moderation and tone-setting for a lot of it (and I've been a critic of weak and permissive moderation here in the past, so credit where credit is due). HN still has some really profound problems with punching down, but so does everywhere else and it's improved significantly; amongst the places I hang out it's gone from perhaps the most egregious example of the kind of nastiness in the industry to somewhere better than the median.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#210
Thanks for being brave enough to share this, and I feel sad you've had to be on the receiving end of this disgraceful behavior. However, I think the levels of appropriateness really doesn't go far enough. It still treats women, sex and relationships far too casually. So here is my suggestion instead - MEN LISTEN AND TAKE NOTICE:

1. If you like a girl, ask her on a date, face to face, or send some flowers. If she declines two or at most three times, give up. She's not into you. Leave it at that. 2. If she says yes to the date, get to know her, find out what makes her tick and how you can care for her. Find out if shes willing to let you kiss her, maybe after a few dates. 3. If things go well, you can propose. Ask her parents or close family members first for permission as far as you can. Think about how you can love, support, help your wife to grow as a person. Think about how you can make her happy and what responsibilities you will need to take on as a husband. 4. Get married. After that, start to talk about what your sex life will look like, what she feels comfortable with, and when even if you are married, make sure you understand that sometimes she won't want to have sex. Then, enjoy yourselves!

Anything less than that is not good enough.

Leave off on the alcohol is probably a good idea too, you can easily get into trouble doing things you wouldn't dare to normally.

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