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Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

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Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#191

Post by ToadLegs »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #175
ToadLegs wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what's another way to do it? I don't know of any way to reliably predict other people's reactions to what I do.

Try to recall the character of someone who doesn't get accused of assaulting or abusing other people, or making them feel uncomfortable -- someone who is respected by people of all creeds and demographics -- and then behave like that. It's not that hard, really. Just be a grown-up. Put away the childish fantasies of finding self-worth by bedding lots of women and flaunting wealth and power, and treat everyone you int…

It's interesting that you construct a whole evil persona for someone, just for asking a few logical questions on the web.

I don't come at this as the pushy sexual conqueror you seem to assume. My perspective is from social anxiety. I already am very hesitant to approach women, because everything seems forbidden and inappropriate.

What I hear OP saying is that there is nothing I can do to be sure some woman doesn't find my sexual or romantic propositions inappropriate, which means I'm a sexual harasser and possibly a criminal.

The standard of just becoming a person "who is respected by people of all creeds and demographics" is extremely ambitious. I don't think I can reach that in my life time. If you have, congratulations!

And even if I can identify a role model like that, how do I find out how he propositions women?

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#192

Post by marcosdumay »

emmab wrote: post #188
orthoganol wrote: post #171

I like it - the all or nothing approach is terrifying as a guy, and defining levels of inappropriateness with exact descriptions of actions is very helpful for those who are freaked out they are going to unwittingly harass someone they are attracted to even just acting naturally. I'm hopefully not belittling the recipients of undesired advances of VC assholes like McClure, but I hope it's also not wrong to say these…

Asking permission before touching people, and not arguing when they say no goes a long way. Want to be able to touch someone without asking every time? Ask them permission for that! "Hey is it ok if I touch your arms and back without asking in the future?"

> "Hey is it ok if I touch your arms and back without asking in the future?"

Oh, that sounds creepy.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#193

Post by eropple »

ToadLegs wrote: post #191
thaumaturgy wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try to recall the character of someone who doesn't get accused of assaulting or abusing other people, or making them feel uncomfortable -- someone who is respected by people of all creeds and demographics -- and then behave like that. It's not that hard, really. Just be a grown-up. Put away the childish fantasies of finding self-worth by bedding lots of women and flaunting wealth and power, and treat everyone you int…

It's interesting that you construct a whole evil persona for someone, just for asking a few logical questions on the web. I don't come at this as the pushy sexual conqueror you seem to assume. My perspective is from social anxiety. I already am very hesitant to approach women, because everything seems forbidden and inappropriate. What I hear OP saying is that there is nothing I can do to be sure some woman doesn't fi…

It really, really isn't that complicated, I promise. Step one: communicate your interest politely and ask her on a date. Step two: if you are rebuffed, don't be a jerk.

You will notice that nowhere in here is "she will act shocked and think you are a harasser." Because that's not how it actually works, despite the considerable efforts of some folks to convince you that it is. Perhaps you should meditate on why they'd spend so much effort on that.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#194

Post by sillysaurus3 »

Banthum wrote: post #185
dang wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Censorship' has become more pejorative than informative, but you're right that users are downvoting and flagging comments; I think pretty fairly. Wherever moderators have intervened (in any way that affects comment visibility), we've posted comments saying so. That goes for the previous threads too. Not every kind of comment is welcome here. HN is trying for higher-quality discussion. (Trying and failing, of course.…

Every comment I've seen so far that has been dead or flagged down had these two properties: 1. Honestly attempting to contribute new information and views to the conversation, or asking new questions. 2. Opinion or assumptions would be considered immoral from a certain (currently dominant) point of view. It seems pretty clear to me that "high-quality" is being conflated with "reinforces my moral convictions" or "upho…

HN isn't an ideological battleground. In general, it's for whatever gratifies intellectual curiosity. The flagged comments may have contributed information, but most of them share a common trait: they're incendiary.

The way to introduce a controversial idea on HN is to be substantive and neutral. It's not easy to do. People are generally passionate about their points of view, and I've been guilty of this myself. But the ideal is worth striving for.

In particular, complaining about downvotes is also against the rules. I did this the other day and regretted it; it unfairly catapulted my comment to the top of the thread due to the overcorrection, and by then it was too late to edit. It's better to let a comment stand or fall on its own merits, as difficult as that is.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#195

Post by novia »

emmab wrote: post #188
orthoganol wrote: post #171

I like it - the all or nothing approach is terrifying as a guy, and defining levels of inappropriateness with exact descriptions of actions is very helpful for those who are freaked out they are going to unwittingly harass someone they are attracted to even just acting naturally. I'm hopefully not belittling the recipients of undesired advances of VC assholes like McClure, but I hope it's also not wrong to say these…

Asking permission before touching people, and not arguing when they say no goes a long way. Want to be able to touch someone without asking every time? Ask them permission for that! "Hey is it ok if I touch your arms and back without asking in the future?"

Often the counter-argument to this is that it feels artificial, unnatural, and it will definitely kill the mood. So I want to preemptively address it.

When a guy asks before touching me, and of course I'm already interested, it makes me melt. It is so sexy and it definitely improves the mood. I just want to point to myself as one data-point.

If you're having trouble believing it, imagine that a hot swimsuit model walks up to you and asks if she can rub your shoulders. Would you be like, "Uh, no, by communicating with me you have completely killed my interest"?

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#197

Post by thaumaturgy »

ToadLegs wrote: post #191
thaumaturgy wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try to recall the character of someone who doesn't get accused of assaulting or abusing other people, or making them feel uncomfortable -- someone who is respected by people of all creeds and demographics -- and then behave like that. It's not that hard, really. Just be a grown-up. Put away the childish fantasies of finding self-worth by bedding lots of women and flaunting wealth and power, and treat everyone you int…

It's interesting that you construct a whole evil persona for someone, just for asking a few logical questions on the web. I don't come at this as the pushy sexual conqueror you seem to assume. My perspective is from social anxiety. I already am very hesitant to approach women, because everything seems forbidden and inappropriate. What I hear OP saying is that there is nothing I can do to be sure some woman doesn't fi…

I wasn't describing you specifically. Maybe I was unclear, or maybe you're trying to steer a discussion about inequity towards a group of people into a discussion about your discomfort as a non-member of that group. Or maybe both.

I also don't think this is the appropriate time and place to write a manual on dating. Here's one hint though: when you meet a nice woman, your first thought shouldn't be, "how do I proposition her?"

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#198

Post by codezero »

novia wrote: post #195
emmab wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Asking permission before touching people, and not arguing when they say no goes a long way. Want to be able to touch someone without asking every time? Ask them permission for that! "Hey is it ok if I touch your arms and back without asking in the future?"

Often the counter-argument to this is that it feels artificial, unnatural, and it will definitely kill the mood. So I want to preemptively address it. When a guy asks before touching me, and of course I'm already interested, it makes me melt. It is so sexy and it definitely improves the mood. I just want to point to myself as one data-point. If you're having trouble believing it, imagine that a hot swimsuit model wal…

I'm convinced the whole "kills the mood" line is coming from folks where the mood never existed but they thought it did. It's basically victim blaming :/

Your example is spot on.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#199

Post by mc32 »

EdSharkey wrote: post #196

Don't date women from work. Don't dip your pen in the company ink, guys. Just from a power perspective, there's no way to get it right, even if you think she's your peer.

That's good advice for people _already_ in a relationship. I don't think that's good advice for singles. Outside of school (writ large) work is one of the places people get to know each other, socialize and mingle. It would be sad to see one of the main places people get to meet to be set "off-limits".

There is nothing mysterious. Just don't be crude. Don't buck convention. Know accepted social norms.

Re: Shedding Light on the “Black Box of Inappropriateness”

#200

Post by throwaway055 »

emmab wrote: post #188
orthoganol wrote: post #171

I like it - the all or nothing approach is terrifying as a guy, and defining levels of inappropriateness with exact descriptions of actions is very helpful for those who are freaked out they are going to unwittingly harass someone they are attracted to even just acting naturally. I'm hopefully not belittling the recipients of undesired advances of VC assholes like McClure, but I hope it's also not wrong to say these…

Asking permission before touching people, and not arguing when they say no goes a long way. Want to be able to touch someone without asking every time? Ask them permission for that! "Hey is it ok if I touch your arms and back without asking in the future?"

> Want to be able to touch someone without asking every time? Ask them permission for that! "Hey is it ok if I touch your arms and back without asking in the future?"

Sorry but this is just absurd. Courtship doesn't (and will never) work that way.

Proposing that standard for human contact implies a lot of negative things about how all of us have conducted our relationships, about how all of our families and parents met and fell in love, and I'm honestly a little offended by your suggestion.

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