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Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

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Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#351

Post by stevenwoo »

expertentipp wrote: post #47
stevenwoo wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had to work in England in the 90's for a week and the bus on the route I used was blown up two hours after I got off by the IRA. All the London landmarks were patrolled by army soldiers with rifles. Everyone can get used to almost any circumstance, the odds of being a victim of a terror attack are miniscule. I'm much more likely to get hit by a drunk driver in the USA.

I refuse to accept the "you are more likely to die in a road accident" argument. Simply refuse. Ironically the terrorist attack in Berlin last December was initially categorized as a road accident.

Well if we accept that wikipedia has statistics correct, in the USA in 2006 about 18,000 people were killed as a result of drunk driving accidents. This compares to the approximate 3000 killed in the 2001 terrorists attacks, so we in the USA accept the number of victims of about one 9/11 attack every two months as a necessary risk of driving, if the cause is a drunk driver.

In the same article, the USA is noted as having a higher DUI rate than either the UK or Australia in spite of both those countries having a lower legal drinking age and higher consumption of alcohol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drunk_driving_in_the_United_St...

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#352

Post by richardknop »

user5994461 wrote: post #256
richardknop wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can compare contracting in London/Zurich/other financial centre. There you can get on par with SF salaries as contractor. Btw, rent in London is about the same as SF or slightly higher. So even with benefits included it's a worse deal. I don't know what the situation with renting is like in Paris but given how low salaries are rent would have to be much lower compared to London in order for it to make sense to wo…

Paris: Rent is 1000 to 1500 € a month for a 1 bedroom. Add the utilities and council tax on top. That's tough considering a typical salary of 40k/year is about 2k/month after all taxes.

Yeah. In London I pay £1800 for 1 bedroom in zone 1.

But at least you can make £120k per year here as contractor so it's manageable.

What's the contracting market like in Paris?

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#353

Post by faster »

user5994461 wrote: post #237
d--b wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am French and I went through the process of immigrating to both the UK and the US. While I agree that France is particularly painful about burocracy, what you describe is not a breeze elsewhere either. You have to compare with other systems, cause I don't know of any immigrants who can say "oh coming here was so easy". That is unless you're sent by a big company who takes care of everything.

As a French who migrated off, going to the UK was so easy. I can't begin to imagine the burden a non speaking French person would have to go through to migrate to France.

I did it in 2013, with a C&T visa and a very weak grasp of the language. It took about 40 hours (mostly standing in various lines) to get my residence card. Some bureaucrats fucked with me because they could, and some were helpful but still followed their own version of the rules. For example, one day photocopies of bills were acceptable for proof of address (but something else was not acceptable) and the very next day, only the original bill would be accepted.

My daughter is fluent in French and she went with me to the prefecture once. She told me that the woman behind the glass was super rude, even though she put on a smile and pretended to be helpful. In fact, the next time I made it through the line there and explained what documents I had and why, the guy went to that woman's counter and chewed her out for being malicious (she had written a partial list of required docs instead of handing me the official complete-ish pre-printed list), and apologized to me for her behavior. Then he rejected my paperwork for a reason that was not documented anywhere.

Catch-22s are everywhere; you can't open a bank account without proof of address, but you can't rent a place without a local bank account. It's the same for just about everything important. We had some French friends who cosigned for our apartment so we could get past that, and we were VERY fortunate to have friends who were willing to do that for us. A few people told me that everyone knows someone who can make fake paperwork; you just can't follow all the rules. C'est impossible!

However, I would say that living in France was a fantastic experience, and I wish I had done it 10 years earlier.

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#354

Post by Chris2048 »

tobltobs wrote: post #331
d--b wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am French and I went through the process of immigrating to both the UK and the US. While I agree that France is particularly painful about burocracy, what you describe is not a breeze elsewhere either. You have to compare with other systems, cause I don't know of any immigrants who can say "oh coming here was so easy". That is unless you're sent by a big company who takes care of everything.

Migrating to Switzerland was a breeze. Everything was set in under a week. Founding a LTD was also easy. In France it took months to get everything solved for immigration (as a EU citizen). I am still struggling to solve those various puzzle pieces for founding a company. The kafkaesque RSI alone requires more time and effort then all the bureaucry in Switzerland together.

Can you live outside France, and commute in to work? E.g Swiss bank account, company etc.

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#355

Post by Chris2048 »

otoburb wrote: post #266
graniter wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually paying French income tax is pretty easy; it's paying US taxes if you are a US citizen working in France that's hard. I'm not sure Americans know that they are taxed on their income wherever they earn it. All other countries only tax your income that you earn in that country. French citizens don't pay income tax on their salary they earn in the US, but the reverse is not true. Not only do Americans have to pa…

You're right about the US being one of the few countries in the world that still tax citizens and permanent residents no matter where they are in the world. You are also correct you should get some tax accounting advice to file your US taxes[ ]. Having said that, the US provides two mechanisms to offset US taxes when you are living abroad: 1) For single income earners, the first ~$100K is exempt or "non-reportable",…

I'm a bit annoyed about this. European forms always ask about the US, even if there's no reason to suspect I've ever been a US citizen - I assume this is purely because America has the pull?

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#356

Post by jgh »

jgh wrote: post #56
seiferteric wrote: post #8

Wow you have to have a graduate degree to even be an eligible employee, never mind.

I believe a "Masters" in France is roughly equivalent to a Bachelors in USA/Canada. At least that's my understanding from friends in France who basically refer to a high school diploma as Baccalaureate.

Alright easy with the down votes guys, I apologize for being wrong.

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#357

Post by Chris2048 »

beisner wrote: post #280
ghgr wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is needed is a joint common language Great! I propose Spanish, being the second most spoken language by number of native speakers (behind Chinese), and given the relevance of Spain through history in Europe. (this comment was only half joking. It's easy to impose a global language when it's yours, but you see, it's a different story when you need to learn a different one).

Although, if we're realistically considering the present situation, the number of people who already speak English as either a native or non-native language are roughly even with the number that speak Mandarin, and far exceed that number for Spanish-speakers. Only looking at Europe, this still holds. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_num...

And how relevant is the average Mandarin speaker to the western workforce? Mandarin speaking is not as distributed as English.

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#358

Post by biztos »

graniter wrote: post #347
biztos wrote: post #167

Four years renewable is nice, but the higher tiers of "international tech talent" employees are usually eligible for a permanent residence permit in Germany. Does France have anything to compete with that, other than better food?

It's four years renewable for the residence permit, but really the important thing is to have a work contract. You get the residence permit because of the work contract. So if you still have a work contract after four years, you would just apply for another residence permit. You can have a work contract that has no expiration (no fixed duration).

Yes, but with my permanent residence permit I can take a year off to write poetry (if I could afford it) then come back and take a part-time job in a cafe or be a freelancer, and nothing would happen to my status.

I'm not arguing that it's better to live in Germany than in France, that depends on way too many variables (not just the food of course). But it would be nice to see more competition. Maybe if other EU countries really started beating Germany for tech talent acquisition, Germany might finally wake up and allow dual citizenship. (Wishful thinking on my part.)

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#359

Post by mtremsal »

d--b wrote: post #230
graniter wrote: post #216

I live and work in France and I am well versed in this type of Visa. It's a very nice arrangement, but it's still France. It's still dealing with the same administrative burdens for everything else. You don't get treated special, you just have a special deal. I've said before that if France wants to attract foreign talent what they need to do is assign someone in the French administration to help workers get establis…

I am French and I went through the process of immigrating to both the UK and the US. While I agree that France is particularly painful about burocracy, what you describe is not a breeze elsewhere either. You have to compare with other systems, cause I don't know of any immigrants who can say "oh coming here was so easy". That is unless you're sent by a big company who takes care of everything.

Moving to the US was easier than navigating the French administration as a French citizen.

I was able to open a bank account on day 2, without an ID. Obtaining the ID required a trip to the DMV, which while time-consuming, wasn't an especially complex endeavour.

Only issue I ran into was the government shutdown, and that affected everyone.

Re: Welcoming Tech Talent from Around the World to France

#360

Post by graniter »

faster wrote: post #353
user5994461 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a French who migrated off, going to the UK was so easy. I can't begin to imagine the burden a non speaking French person would have to go through to migrate to France.

I did it in 2013, with a C&T visa and a very weak grasp of the language. It took about 40 hours (mostly standing in various lines) to get my residence card. Some bureaucrats fucked with me because they could, and some were helpful but still followed their own version of the rules. For example, one day photocopies of bills were acceptable for proof of address (but something else was not acceptable) and the very next d…

For the proof of residence, an option nowadays is to book a place long term on airbnb, say 6 months or more, and then put the utilities in your name. Even just one utility may be enough, like water or electricity, maybe even internet too. Then you can use the utility bill as proof of address without needing to sign a formal rental agreement. Note that most governmental places will not accept an AirBnB receipt as proof of address, but a bank might. Keep bills of everything. Always have copies of everything on hand (passports, work contract, birth certificates, visas, bills) and keep electronic copies that you can print off any time.
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