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Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

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Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#111

Post by wyclif »

tluyben2 wrote: post #40
aiyodev wrote: post #20

I'm surprised so many men in here are comfortable being alone with women. You've given another person the power to put you in prison and destroy your entire life at any time without any evidence. All they have to do is make the accusation. You'll lose your job. You'll probably lose your family. You'll probably lose your freedom. It's not worth the risk.

What a way to live... From the US are you? Nothing wrong with that but it seems a US thing. How can we close the gender gap when people think like you?

It probably is a US thing, but so what? We're all culturally conditioned depending on where we're from and where we live. Don't forget, the US is a very litigious society, and I'll wager that plays into his comment.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#112

Post by MarkMc »

aiyodev wrote: post #20

I'm surprised so many men in here are comfortable being alone with women. You've given another person the power to put you in prison and destroy your entire life at any time without any evidence. All they have to do is make the accusation. You'll lose your job. You'll probably lose your family. You'll probably lose your freedom. It's not worth the risk.

> All they have to do is make the accusation.

I doubt that. It seems that without witnesses or physical evidence the accusation will go nowhere.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#113

Post by meric »

cbanek wrote: post #30
meric wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the situations where the manager and the managed are of the opposite sex and one or both are aware of their own ethical and spiritual vulnerabilities maybe it'd be a good idea to have a 2:1 or 1:2 instead of a 1:1.

I hope you're joking, but if you're not, that sounds like a horrible idea to me. Being a woman, and having had 1:1's with male managers for pretty much my entire tech career, I've never heard of this happening. I don't know what spiritual vulnerabilities you are talking about, but in terms of ethics if you can't work with a female employee, you shouldn't be a manager. You're basically telling the person that you can'…

What I say applies to the females and males mentioned in the article who indicated they are uncomfortable being in a one on one situation with the opposite sex who is not their spouse, some of whom are already managers. Being outside those organisations I am not in a place where I can demote them, and thereby I made my proposal, maybe it will get picked up by the males and female workers mentioned in the article to reduce disadvantage in not being able to have one on one time with their opposite sex manager.

I encourage you to push your opinions and beliefs within your own organisation. But I hope you don't go around outing people who are uncomfortable with being alone with the opposite sex to get them fired, before they have done anything. (And if anything IMO they ought to be commended for actively avoiding situations where they will have inappropriate thoughts about their colleagues)

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#114

Post by apexalpha »

aiyodev wrote: post #20

I'm surprised so many men in here are comfortable being alone with women. You've given another person the power to put you in prison and destroy your entire life at any time without any evidence. All they have to do is make the accusation. You'll lose your job. You'll probably lose your family. You'll probably lose your freedom. It's not worth the risk.

This comment could just as well be from another planet to me. I'm in my twenties now and have a GF. I still drive to work with another woman in a car, I have meetings 1 on 1 with my female manager.

In my personal life I have girl friends that I am not dating with but that are part of my friends group and that I hang out with. Also in 1 on 1 settings.

The fact that the 'risk' you talk about is even part of your daily routine baffles me. Truly baffles me. I have never heard any story (aside from Reddit) like this where a guy loses his work, friends, family and life because a woman simply accused him after being alone with someone.

No offense, maybe i'm wrong. I'm not American after all, but I have met Americans and none have opinion even close to the opinion you have on women. It's bizarre to me.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#115

Post by biafra »

Inconel wrote: post #79
dijit wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good response; I'm glad it worked out for your friend. I would agree that it might be a disadvantage for women, but conversely I would just make an effort to ensure there was _someone_ else with us, male or female. So instead of drinks 1:1 outside work, or a 1:1 meeting, It would instead be three people which mitigates both parties liability. I am a senior engineer, not a manager, but if I were a manager one on ones…

I think a policy of having more than one person present in these kinds of meetings, especially if they are off site or after working hours, is certainly a good way to mitigate any risk as well as ensure everyone is still receiving the support or mentorship they need. As an aside, it's always nice to hear someone who recognizes they aren't a good fit to be a manager. I'm not sure I would be good at it either but it se…

What if both parties collude against you? Then you're in even more trouble. I don't get this paranoia against mixed gender one on one meetings at work. You're truly paranoid. I hope this is only a problem in the US. I have never heard of it in Germany or Europe. Do you really have an Anstandswauwau (chaperon) standing by? I would feel very weird participating only because a man and a woman cannot be trusted to behave professionally in a work environment.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#116

Post by harrisi »

Inconel wrote: post #104
learc83 wrote: post #78

When I was in college I was a team lead at Best Buy for a while. I was in charge of a mostly female team of cashiers, and I was alone with them in the cash office frequently while they counted their tills. I made one of the cashiers mad by reprimanding her, and she decided to get back at me by claiming that I grabbed her and shook her while we were in the cash office. I never touched her, and luckily we still had vid…

Your point about having video evidence brings up an interesting question for me, how does the HN community generally feel about pervasive workplace surveillance? It seems based on some of the articles I've read about harassment, that many times people will only feel comfortable coming forward when they have hard evidence such as texts, emails, video, etc against the perpetrators. Seeing as we, in the US at least, see…

I think having constant surveillance can have a negative impact on work life. I know that when discussions moved to Slack at my work place there was a very different way to communicate due to us knowing our conversations may be read. Not that there were any instances of harassment, but sometimes it can be relieving to tell a coworker that your boss is a dick. It can help get feelings out before they build up.

I do see some value in surveillance, such as the GP's instance (whether or not it's true -- it's a reasonably plausible story). I, however, don't think that constant surveillance that upper management has free reign over is good. I did have an idea about this. Is there a way to have a file (such as video/audio) encrypted in such a way that it can only be decrypted with multiple keys? In GP's case, GP and the employee that made the accusation? That way you can still feel safe(-ish) that your small slacking off won't risk your job, while allowing for evidence in serious situations such as GP's.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#117

Post by SCdF »

lqdc13 wrote: post #109
SCdF wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is, statistically speaking without breaking it down by industry, close to half of women at your workplace are getting harassed and could report the perpetrator. That is a good point! Were I a perpetrator I too would be worried about that.. Seriously though, what are you trying to say here? Because half of women have been harassed at work you're worried about being alone in the room with one because, you're afr…

In that case, should 50% of men at your current workplace be immediately fired for previous harassment? You are probably assuming it is one or two people doing all the harassment, but what if it's uniformly distributed? Different people find different things offensive. Some have a very low tolerance. Some joke to build camaraderie. On the other hand, there is always a way to interpret almost any joke as offensive. Ge…

> In that case, should 50% of men at your current workplace be immediately fired for previous harassment? You are probably assuming it is one or two people doing all the harassment, but what if it's uniformly distributed?

What if!

I'm guessing there is a cultural issue here, since you've jumped onto firing, which I didn't even realise was something we were talking about . It sounds like in your (US-based) experience people can be trigger fired based on an honest miscommunication (e.g. a joke that unintentionally offended someone).

This is not anything I have ever experienced.

I guess this comes down again to why I found the statistics to be so surprising. Taking those stats by themselves, the US appears to be incredibly paranoid and puritanical about "the other sex", to the point where you're scared to be in the same room as one of them.

In my non-US experience if you make a shitty joke you are called on it, but you're not going to be insta-fired.

If you physically assault someone, or continue to be a misogynistic shit-heel, that is another story..

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#118

Post by learc83 »

xiaoma wrote: post #94
rufford wrote: post #29

It's a cultural issue with Americans. There seems to be a belief there that equality is not really equality but a battle of the genders imo. Women and men alike obsess over the differences and have very traditional dating structures/marriages. Gender equality in Europe makes the states look like a joke

I've noticed a huge difference between China (and the greater Chinese speaking community throughout Asia) and the US, too. I also see a lot of hostility between the sexes in the US. Part of that is due to differences in how people use social media for public shaming and to share "outrage porn", but even in offline interactions there are just fundamentally different expectations. It's absolutely striking how few Ameri…

>Of course not everyone can be an entrepreneur, but it also looks uncommon in the US for people to significantly invest in their partner's careers either

About 30% of mothers are stay at home moms and the majority of them are supporting their husband's careers by running the household. The majority of the women who do work, still do the majority of house work and childcare.

>It's absolutely striking how few American couples pour their resources together and run a business together.

Health insurance has a lot to do with that. It's common for one spouse to work just for insurance. Obamacare helped with that, but with it's future uncertain...

>but it seems like most are run by immigrants.

This depends heavily on location. And there are few factors at play.

-Many immigrants to the US come here specifically with a plan to start a business, and in order to become a permanent resident there are financial requirements.

-Immigrants from many countries have historically faced discrimination, and self-employment was their only available option. The networks in place to support self-employment in these communities still exists and self-employment is encouraged within these communities.

-Immigrant owned businesses often cater to immigrant communities that are ignored by larger chain stores that have driven many small retail stores out of business.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#119

Post by lqdc13 »

apexalpha wrote: post #114
aiyodev wrote: post #20

I'm surprised so many men in here are comfortable being alone with women. You've given another person the power to put you in prison and destroy your entire life at any time without any evidence. All they have to do is make the accusation. You'll lose your job. You'll probably lose your family. You'll probably lose your freedom. It's not worth the risk.

This comment could just as well be from another planet to me. I'm in my twenties now and have a GF. I still drive to work with another woman in a car, I have meetings 1 on 1 with my female manager. In my personal life I have girl friends that I am not dating with but that are part of my friends group and that I hang out with. Also in 1 on 1 settings. The fact that the 'risk' you talk about is even part of your daily…

Having lived in Europe and the U.S., Bay Area and Europe might as well be on different planets. There are very big cultural differences.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#120

Post by dijit »

biafra wrote: post #115
Inconel wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a policy of having more than one person present in these kinds of meetings, especially if they are off site or after working hours, is certainly a good way to mitigate any risk as well as ensure everyone is still receiving the support or mentorship they need. As an aside, it's always nice to hear someone who recognizes they aren't a good fit to be a manager. I'm not sure I would be good at it either but it se…

What if both parties collude against you? Then you're in even more trouble. I don't get this paranoia against mixed gender one on one meetings at work. You're truly paranoid. I hope this is only a problem in the US. I have never heard of it in Germany or Europe. Do you really have an Anstandswauwau (chaperon) standing by? I would feel very weird participating only because a man and a woman cannot be trusted to behave…

Much less damage scope. Individuals can be vindictive sometimes. especially if they feel slighted, and have easy opportunity. It's generally curbed if they know they won't get away with petty revenge.

I speak from experience from being around vindictive people.

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