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Why Student Programmers Rant about Business Students with “Ideas”

drewyates.net

21–30 of 42 posts

Re: Why Student Programmers Rant about Business Students with “Ideas”

#21
post #19
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just thought that, all else being equal, people on both sides are equally stubborn about sticking to their own ideas. Do you find this not to be the case?

I didn't think in terms of people on sides, just about arrogant hackers. Of course there are all kinds of people who only ever consider their own ideas to be worthwhile.

If this is the case for hackers then I can at least see a very good reason for it. The _only_ reason I learned to program was for the power it gives me to create new things and explore whatever I want.

Take that away from me? Forget it, I'll do any number of occupations where I can earn more.

Re: Why Student Programmers Rant about Business Students with “Ideas”

#22
Unfortunately all these discussions are too filled with obnoxious generalizations to be useful. In my experience good business people are rare and when you find them you should keep them. I am a science PhD with my own company and my first business development person (MBA dropout - employee number 5) is worth his weight in gold. He brought a customer focus and an outward orientation that few hackers are capable of. On the flip side, I have found some of my hackers to be prima-donnas who think they are special just because they know functional programming.

The real discussion should be about how to find the right business person for your startup. Here is what I look for: 1> outgoing but pleasant to be around, 2> good listener, 3> cares about technical details, is curious, 4> has a broad range of interests, 5> has geek/hacker friends, 6> can conceptualize a business as a systems problem.

Re: Why Student Programmers Rant about Business Students with “Ideas”

#25
A lot of the biz types would be surprised at how truly unoriginal their "ideas" are. It takes deep technical insight to come up with something truly groundbreaking.

I would rather talk about the opposite case: i.e. A hacker has a brilliant technology idea and needs to find a business person with the connections, sales skills, finance skills, channel knowledge (and at least some technical understanding) to make it commercially viable. That seems like a harder problem... your fresh out of college MBA guy might not be the right fit.

Re: Why Student Programmers Rant about Business Students with “Ideas”

#26

I'm reminded of Kawasaki's rule of thumb when it comes to valuing startups: add $250K for every full-time engineer you have and subtract $250K for every full-time MBA you have. :)

So if you're an engineer with an MBA, it's a wash? Little known fact is that originally the MBA program was specifically designed for engineers. It was supposed to address the needs of engineers who were rising the management ranks. I know when I did mine, I generally looked down on the people who did their undergrads in business (why exactly are you taking the same courses again?).

Re: Why Student Programmers Rant about Business Students with “Ideas”

#27
post #16

I wouldn’t necessarily say this has anything to do with students or school. I’ve been out of school for a couple of years now and have been working as a developer for about 5 years. One incident, in particular, drove most of the hatred for my original (and now replaced) rant. It involved an M.B.A. recruiting me to work for “his idea”, promising a bunch of money and a sizable stake in equity (~35%). However, once the…

Maybe you should write an article titled, "Get it in Writing."

Re: Why Student Programmers Rant about Business Students with “Ideas”

#28
There are hybrids. Talent at one does not imply a mutually exclusive lack of talent for the other. Perhaps we were an exception in the past, but students who are savvy at both business and technical things are becoming increasingly more common today, thanks to Universities. Technology spurs change; people who adapt survive. People who spend a bunch of time whining about change don't tend to survive. Universities teach people ways of adapting to change, and different ways of thinking.

It does take a bit of forward thinking, and that's where I think business students have a slight advantage. Writing code is great, wonderful, and something I love to do. Many business students would say that in the grand scheme of things, it's a useless talent unless it solves some kind of problem. Many techies would say that in the grand scheme of things, it's an incredibly useful talent, as it involves understanding the underlying structure or system. Although my formal education is in business, guess what? I agree 100 percent with the latter; I don't know where people get their stereotypes about MBAs, but there's really no such thing as a "typical" MBA. Most of us are, on some level or another, systems people.

Indeed, one of the more valuable lessons I gained from mine was to stop seeing "problems" and start seeing "opportunities". There have been so many times I've used a search engine to look for something, not found it, and thought 'now _that_ would be a great idea for a business'.

So yeah, it's very true that in business school, we're taught to seek out competitors' weaknesses, and "exploit" those weaknesses. But as every hacker knows, just because you _can_ do something doesn't mean you _should_. And then are there those (the majority) who just don't care: what I find quite humorous is how some people consider themselves "programmers" if they know how to set the TiVo to record 'American Idol.' A little bit funny, b/c the original rant reminds me a lot of a high-school cliche about cliques. Nonetheless, cheers to Mr. Yates for his frank opinions. :)

Re: Why Student Programmers Rant about Business Students with “Ideas”

#29
post #8

Let it die this already. I think this has been beaten to death. A businness type, with just an idea, without any hackers, or capital to implement it, is just day dreaming. And it is annoying when they think they deserve more than half of the company just b/c of that idea.... If they were providing more than that, capital, connections, userbase, community or something significant, then yes that idea is more than just…

>>> A CS major can easily go to MBA and be good at it, will the reverse is very rare

The technical/science degree to MBA path is there for a reason and is extremely common. A lot of people work in a technical job for five years and then decide that they'd rather move on to management then spend the rest of there careers as programmers, engineers, biologists, etc.

If there was an good enough reason for a business undergrad to pursue a masters in CS or engineering, you'd probably see more of it. However, there really isn't. I don't know any marketing undergrads who just decided to get into quantum physics because it would help their career path either. It doesn't mean they can't, it just means there isn't a practical reason to do so.

There are MBA's who shouldn't be involved in startups just as there are PhD CS's who shouldn't either.

Re: Why Student Programmers Rant about Business Students with “Ideas”

#30
post #21
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't think in terms of people on sides, just about arrogant hackers. Of course there are all kinds of people who only ever consider their own ideas to be worthwhile.

If this is the case for hackers then I can at least see a very good reason for it. The _only_ reason I learned to program was for the power it gives me to create new things and explore whatever I want. Take that away from me? Forget it, I'll do any number of occupations where I can earn more.

But some things are hard or impossible to achieve alone, so teaming up with others might be necessary.
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