Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society • Hacker News Board

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#201

Post by tonyedgecombe » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 10:53 AM UTC

EdSharkey wrote: post #185

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of good government regulation is what created the mess you are in, the real world isn't like some Ayn Rand novel.

There is an implication in your message here: government can do no wrong. Or, at the very least, "this government is the best we got and I'm willing to sacrifice a lot to see my government does its good works." But I just made a 360° slam dunk of an argument that pops your best/good-works bubble: 7 providers, no competition, no market forces, wildly expensive care - all demonstrably because of bad laws and cronyism i…

There is no such implication in my message.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#202

Post by rrock » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 12:45 PM UTC

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #200

EdSharkey wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our adversaries in this debate see government as a hyper-competent, wise dispenser of justice that is nearly akin to an invisible benevolent god and savior. I don't think your rational arguments will make a dent against their fervor.

There is no need to have faith in anything special. As I said in my original post, it's just a matter of looking at healthcare systems in most of the developed world. The healthcare systems that work best, in any published study and metric, have much more public involvement that the US system. "Fervor" is what it takes to believe in utopian solutions that go exactly in the opposite direction to the success stories, a…

You are my people.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#203

Post by EdSharkey » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 5:55 PM UTC

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #200

EdSharkey wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our adversaries in this debate see government as a hyper-competent, wise dispenser of justice that is nearly akin to an invisible benevolent god and savior. I don't think your rational arguments will make a dent against their fervor.

There is no need to have faith in anything special. As I said in my original post, it's just a matter of looking at healthcare systems in most of the developed world. The healthcare systems that work best, in any published study and metric, have much more public involvement that the US system. "Fervor" is what it takes to believe in utopian solutions that go exactly in the opposite direction to the success stories, a…

Oh, we look abroad. We like what Indonesia is doing with mandatory health savings accounts that is owned by the citizen (can't be raided by crooked politicians, a la social security). I wonder if you can explain: if socialized health care is so great, why do so many Brits purchase supplemental private health insurance?

Any study or metric, huh? Sounds like you prefer lies, damn lies, and statistics.

For instance, the US is hands-down the best in the world for intensive care after premature births. But you wouldn't know that if you just looked at infant mortality rates as compared to other countries because they use a different standard for what constitutes a "live birth". We actually place some value on life and work really hard to rescue the preemies, but that skews our numbers because lots of them still die.

When you make blanket statements, try bolstering them with some truth or else you sound like an ideologue.

Drill down a little. Make sure you shake those assumptions you've been fed and make the ideas resilient to attacks.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#204

Post by EdSharkey » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 6:55 PM UTC

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #201

EdSharkey wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an implication in your message here: government can do no wrong. Or, at the very least, "this government is the best we got and I'm willing to sacrifice a lot to see my government does its good works." But I just made a 360° slam dunk of an argument that pops your best/good-works bubble: 7 providers, no competition, no market forces, wildly expensive care - all demonstrably because of bad laws and cronyism i…

There is no such implication in my message.

No? My bad. I thought we were 1-dimensionalizing one another like tribalists rather than having a rational argument. Perhaps you do have something to contribute? I shall give you the benefit of the doubt that you are a razor sharp intellect and a force to be reckoned with.

Here's how I was able to get there in a split second. Perhaps, JUST PERHAPS, you can analyze yourself for similar flaws: "He tossed out Ayn Rand, probably never read her. Ugh, what a bore he must be at parties! So he's a progressive thinker. His weaknesses are a bias towards government, a lack of critical thinking, and a victim mentality. Can't do anything about the victimhood, he needs a shrink for that. Okay, attack his center by opposing his faith in government with the epic fail that is the rigged U.S. health care system."

I know nothing about you and did no research, so the chances any of those assumptions were right are close to nil. That kind of wretched thinking about someone I don't know is not only unproductive, but psychologically harmful to me. (Which is why I try to avoid it.) But as you can see, it's easy for me to let my brat out of his cage.

I think your problem is you assume you're right and you're indignant when someone challenges your beliefs to the point of being emotional about it. You don't feel the need to present an opposing argument with any detail, which is a shame since you probably have wisdom to share. (EDIT: oops, my brat is still off his leash...)

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#205

Post by ebcode » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 6:57 PM UTC

andai wrote: post #123

ebcode wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like the pyramid scheme on the back of the one dollar bill? That floating eye makes me poorer every time I see it.

Sorry if I'm killing a joke or something, but could you please clarify?

Yep, you're killing it. The Great Seal of The United States [0] is printed on the back of USD $1 bills. The motif on the obverse side of the seal is an uncapped pyramid with a floating eye on top. Thus, the pyramid "scheme". Then, the "All-Seeing-Eye", being some kind of symbol for God, is used to represent authority, or higher power, thus making me, a mortal and a peasant, feel less empowered, thus "poorer". Hope that clarifies things a bit. (note to self: stop joking on HN)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Seal_of_the_United_State...

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#206

Post by tonyedgecombe » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 7:03 PM UTC

EdSharkey wrote: post #204

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no such implication in my message.

No? My bad. I thought we were 1-dimensionalizing one another like tribalists rather than having a rational argument. Perhaps you do have something to contribute? I shall give you the benefit of the doubt that you are a razor sharp intellect and a force to be reckoned with. Here's how I was able to get there in a split second. Perhaps, JUST PERHAPS, you can analyze yourself for similar flaws: "He tossed out Ayn Rand,…

>Perhaps you do have something to contribute?

Stopped reading at that point.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#207

Post by EdSharkey » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 7:21 PM UTC

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #206

EdSharkey wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No? My bad. I thought we were 1-dimensionalizing one another like tribalists rather than having a rational argument. Perhaps you do have something to contribute? I shall give you the benefit of the doubt that you are a razor sharp intellect and a force to be reckoned with. Here's how I was able to get there in a split second. Perhaps, JUST PERHAPS, you can analyze yourself for similar flaws: "He tossed out Ayn Rand,…

>Perhaps you do have something to contribute? Stopped reading at that point.

I hope that's not true, this could be catharsis for you.

You can't win the debate if you don't attend.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#208

Post by Consultant32452 » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 10:14 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #162

EdSharkey wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sarcastic, but you willfully lack imagination. There are urchins who choose not to work and do just fine. It's fairly straightforward to scam Social Security Disability for main income and then collect EBT, food stamps, and get some housing in the projects. It's not a great life, but it's a living, and there's plenty more help to pay for phone and utilities. If one is wicked, then they can sprinkle in some identity t…

What about all the poor people who want to work but can't find a job, or all the poor people who do work but just don't earn enough to stop being poor?

If those people managed to graduate high school and didn't have children out of wedlock, then there's a 98% chance they'll escape poverty. https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/three-simple-rules-poor-t...

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#209

Post by Consultant32452 » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 10:30 PM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #26

Consultant32452 wrote: post #4

Staying out of poverty is simple. By in large it takes three things: graduate high school, maintain employment, and don't have children out of wedlock. These three things are important to remember whenever we're discussing social policy. Any policy that subsidizes or encourages people to not do those three things is a social policy that behaves like a poverty factory.

Even assuming your assumptions are correct, none of these things are entirely within a person's control. Whether or not you graduate high school can depend as much on you as on your family, school, neighborhood, etc. Unemployment exists, and is not due merely to a lack of will on the part of the potentially employed, so that doesn't make sense either. And there are ways to become a single parent which don't involve i…

What does the degree of control a person has over those things have to do with whether social policy should encourage behavior known to increase poverty?

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#210

Post by webnrrd2k » Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 11:02 PM UTC

unsigner wrote: post #42

analog31 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oddly enough, I'm the first to admit that I've achieved my level of income by luck, and without hard work. I was lucky to have two educated parents, their wealth to fall back on, and an affluent, healthy environment to grow up in. My parents paid for my undergraduate education, and the government paid for my graduate degree. I "work" in a nice office, by playing with equations and gadgets, and talking to people. Mean…

Being born to two educated parents is not luck on your part, but well deserved reward for a long, concerted effort on theirs. You're not a random happening on a clean slate; you're just the latest offshoot of a family.

Was it luck that both of the parents were able to put in long, concerted effort?

(I'm not trying to say that hard work has nothing to do with anything, quite the opposite, but that "luck", as the word is commonly used, also plays a huge part in any ones life)