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Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

nytimes.com

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Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#801

Post by ewjordan »

Mz wrote: post #784
ewjordan wrote: post #782

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And the rate of growth really climbed after the middle of the 20th century, when the expansion of basic education became a global priority. You can read more about the expansion of education systems around the world in our entry on Financing Education. (links to https://ourworldindata.org/financing-education#historical-pe... ) I don't know if that is proof of the statement or anything, but I don't think it's a part…

They need to be fought viciously it's extremely important to ... fight that fight, "Going to war to preserve the peace is like fucking to preserve virginity." Business connections don't happen by being aggressive, ugly and fighty. They are based on hard won trust. In a nutshell, the problem women face is that when men trust them and like them, their first, middle, last and only thought is often "I'd hit that!" I'm ha…

Fair enough, I'm very sorry about the crisis and hope it works out okay.

I 100% agree with your calling out constant sexualization of women as a major problem that permeates the industry, so I don't think we're really that far apart. At least on my end any disagreement mostly centers on the role that education will play in mitigating the side effects, which is fine; even if it doesn't help as much as I hope it will, I'm still happy to see the progress that students make as a result of my work, and I can't blame anyone for being skeptical about the ultimate impact.

So no hard feelings, and I apologise if I came across as argumentative. It does occur to me in hindsight that especially in the context of this article, my comments could be construed as defensive of the industry status quo, since "it's the pipeline!" is too often used in that way. That's not what I intended at all, I'm sorry I failed to make that clear. I think we really are on the same side here in terms of goals, if not tactics.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#802

Post by auserperson »

Un3qual wrote: post #292
pfarnsworth wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it gets to the point of creepily staring for long periods of time, or wanting to act on his thoughts, then he has good reason to see a therapist, This is what he said, that's why I suggested a therapist. He constantly thinks about having sex with his female coworkers, and the ones that he feels the most attracted to he will give "eyes" to. Then he feels guilty afterwards. These are abnormal reactions. I wasn't t…

Ah, it looks like we interpreted his words differently, and I misunderstood what you meant. I assumed that >I cannot work with a woman without thinking about having sex with her. meant that he can still get work done with women, but he thinks about having sex with them. I should also clarify my point "that many of my platonic female friends are very attractive, but I don't want to have sex with them." I'm not saying…

He seems obsessed with the problem and and can't cope with the guilt of his own thoughts, he should see a therapist to learn about how to deal with that. To say someone to see a therapist is not an insult! It's mental health, it's fine!

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#803

Post by xor1 »

dang wrote: post #798
xor1 wrote: post #795

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi Thomas, Just want to begin by saying I have a lot of respect for you and Matasano. I think the fact that you think that it's inappropriate to discuss mental health at all is very telling of the main issue I have with all of this. Mental health shouldn't be taboo. I think people should be more open and willing to discuss their issues and any traits that they recognize in broad diagnostic criteria, and to seek treat…

You're continuing to take this thread way off topic. When I told you this earlier, was it not clear that I was asking you to stop? Please stop now. 23 comments about this in a single thread, let alone this thread, is beyond the pale.

Sorry, I assumed that a thread being detached for being off-topic meant that the off-topic discussion could continue. I'll stop if that's not the case and will take note accordingly. I'd appreciate a lift of the posting time limit too. I'll just play safe and avoid any sort of contentious posting going forward. Argument isn't the main reason I come to HN, after all.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#804

Post by zo1 »

linkregister wrote: post #423
rayiner wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To me, this is the sort of "fainting couch" feminism that regards women as only potential victims who can't stand up for themselves and who must be protected by others. It's not fainting couch feminism, it's pragmatic feminism. These interactions happen in a context where peoples' livelihoods, their hopes and dreams, are on the line. Are you going to expect them to jeopardize that by overtly calling someone out? Th…

I think the point that the parent commenter is missing, and you're not illustrating, is that women are very frequently propositioned in the workplace. To stcredzero, he's innocuously asking a woman colleague of equal rank, who he has rapport with, out to a movie. He sees it as an opportunity to develop a relationship that could lead to a happy marriage. He doesn't get that many opportunities due to various reasons, s…

>"The workplace should be focused on work, not another place where a woman has to be on guard."

I don't think there is consensus on that view. Work wouldn't be my first choice for finding a suitable partner. But that doesn't mean that individuals that spend a lot of time together in a non-social context are magically excluded from behaving in a certain way for the sole benefit of female comfort. There is a clear difference between consensual actions here, and we mustn't infantilize women by making such blanket statements that essentially amount to us saying that women need an incredibly sterile and "safe" (from proposition) environment to work in.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#805

Post by belorn »

s73ver wrote: post #717
qb45 wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other pathology is relevant because it contributes to the first one. It's not about equal exposure for the sake of equality, but relevant to understanding how shit works and how to deal with it.

No, it really doesn’t. The two have nothing to do with each other. One is quite rampant, while the other is quite rare.

Trying to see it from a cultural perspective, how common is it that female character "dates up" in books, TV and movies (and in particular, those targeting a female audience)?

Thinking back at the show Grey's Anatomy, ABC's highest-rated drama show, got a female lead, and was among the top 10 shows in the US. A recent joke the character made was that all of them married their bosses. While fictional, culture impacts perception regarding behavior and in turns causes behavior.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#806

Post by Geekette »

smmsnsks wrote: post #193

Avoiding this situation is why I never meet women 1:1 outside of conference rooms, yet Mike Pence was roundly mocked for doing this.

"Avoiding this situation is why I never meet women 1:1 outside of conference rooms, yet Mike Pence was roundly mocked for doing this."

The easiest way to avoid this situation is by simply not behaving inappropriately around women, including not sexually harassing them. Otherwise, you appear to be saying that you can't prevent yourself from behaving inappropriately around women in one-on-one meetings, which would be problematic. The men cited in the article very clearly and deliberately overstepped boundaries, not by mistake.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#807

Post by s73ver »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #767
s73ver wrote: post #722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the same time, your “boys will be boys” attitude makes it hard to take you seriously as well. How do we actually get this behavior to stop when there are so many out there saying we shouldn’t call it out or there shouldn’t be consequences for it because they are “ignorant” of what they’re doing? On top of that, I don’t buy that ignorance argument for a second; they know exactly what they are doing.

If you got "boys will be boys" out of what I said, you obviously didn't read very far. Feel free to read the whole post and make half an effort to see what I was saying. I also didn't say there shouldn't be consequences. Not that it matters much, you've already wrongly assumed how these people work. You're free to do that, but if you don't understand what motivates someone's behavior, your efforts to improve your own…

I got it out of what appears to be an unwillingness to hold these people accountable for their actions. All throughout this thread, including from you, I see an unwillingness to condemn these actions, and really, a call for a complete lack of real consequences. I see a lot of “Well, we can’t actually punish them; that’d be counterproductive.” Counterproductive to what? Actual punishment is how you send the message that these things are not acceptable. If someone can do these things, and when called out just say, “I’m sorry I got caught”, then the message is that no one really cares if this happens.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#808

Post by dang »

watwut wrote: post #440

> a volunteer organization who went directly from "I don't think I can see a movie tonight" to "This situation is making me uncomfortable" with nothing in between. She tried to tell you gently in the way girls are taught to reject men while still being nice to them. If you reject dude other way, some tend to t get insulted anyway. You did not get it, so she informed you flat out about how she really think about the s…

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14674805 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#809

Post by lawnchair_larry »

watwut wrote: post #431
curun1r wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

If she touch his junk or send him text invitation for sex, then absolutely we should call it harassment and call that out.

Let's be realistic. We call that getting lucky. We have enough real victims, let's not try to manufacture new ones.
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