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Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

nytimes.com

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Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#791

Post by zo1 »

malandrew wrote: post #643
tajen wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men need to work hard to jail those assholes, here's why: They are the reason why men are described as generally threatening, discrediting and imposing huge constraints in advance on all men who show proper social restraint and respect for women.

I wonder how many innocent people we'll end up condemning with this posture. It's not like history lacks any examples that demonstrates that this is exactly what happens when you get tough and prosecutorial. You're pretty much sanctioning a pitchfork and torch attitude and that evolves into mobs that are often wrong. These days it feels like we've learn nothing from stories like the Scarlet Letter that describe a tim…

I wonder how many innocent people we've already condemned with this attitude.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#792

Post by zo1 »

mirimir wrote: post #680
naasking wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Asking random women for sex is arguably also coercive. Asking is coercion now? I'd like to hear that argument.

"That's a damn fine coat you're wearing ..." ;)

That sounds more like a compliment. You're jumping through hoops.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#793

Post by obstinate »

stcredzero wrote: post #773
obstinate wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Disclosure, this comes to mind because of something that happened between me and a colleague of equal rank in a volunteer organization who went directly from "I don't think I can see a movie tonight" to "This situation is making me uncomfortable" with nothing in between. Did you ask multiple times? This sounds like what could easily happen when someone won't take the initial "no," implicit or not, for an answer. Ba…

3. Rational adults understand and respond to signalling. They don't demand that all communication happen explicitly and on their terms, because they know that such demands are ineffective for all purposes, will not be heeded, and might make them social pariahs. Which is why people behave that way in airplane cockpits and the bridges of submarines. (Actually, such behavior has gotten people killed in those contexts.)…

> Actually, such behavior has gotten people killed in those contexts.

Nobody is going to die if you can't date someone.

Again, I advocate a conservative approach to getting a date with a coworker. One request, declined for any reason, should be treated as a firm no absent explicit signals to the contrary (request for a rain check, some other sort of proactive, explicitly date-seeking behavior from the other party). Your odds of getting into trouble under this rule are so vanishingly small as to be nonexistent. If you choose some less conservative rule, including, apparently, whatever rule you've been following up to this point, your risks are higher.

Of course, there's also the issue of not wanting to make your woman coworkers uncomfortable. I would hope that would be something of intrinsic value to you, and that on this basis alone you might change your behavior after seeing its impact in the past. The fact that you're still arguing about this makes me doubt that you do value their comfort the way that I think you should. But I don't know how to tell you that you should care about other people in a way that's going to stick. :(

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#794

Post by zo1 »

RodericDay wrote: post #495
ubernostrum wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

dudes really need special courses on how to not be harassers? Given the many first-hand accounts of ordinary everyday harassment and men who flat-out do not seem to understand what is and isn't inappropriate, or what the words "no" or "I'm not interested" or "leave me alone" mean, yes, it does seem there is a significant population for whom this type of basic education is absolutely and vitally necessary. Think of it…

Actually what we need is a huge corrective in media, the stuff feminists complain about all the time. e.g. bell hooks' film stuff, The Bechdel Test, Anita Sarkeesian's work, etc. This problem forms in large part because men are too attached to media that reinforces notions of women as secondary people, objects, and reward trophies. The problem is that people's empathy with women going through harassment abruptly stop…

>"Actually what we need is a huge corrective in media, the stuff feminists complain about all the time. [...]This problem forms in large part because men are too attached to media that reinforces notions of women as secondary people, objects, and reward trophies."

Yes, let's make it a thought crime to think of women as "secondary people, objects and reward trophies" and punish them for thinking it, instead of punishing actual physical criminal behavior. Let's ban and burn books because we don't like the type of behavior they "create" in males.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#795

Post by xor1 »

tptacek wrote: post #774
xor1 wrote: post #741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yes, I've met many people with borderline personality disorder. How many of them do you know extremely well? As in you've spent time alone with them for hours or even days on end? Are you a mental health professional who has treated them as patients? You don't really know someone with borderline until you do either of these, IMO, no matter how much research or campaigning you do. >False accusations are not more comm…

We are way off the cliff of inappropriate conversations when we're: * Attributing mental health conditions to hypothetical strangers * Insinuating other commenters on HN have mental health conditions * Impugning entire groups of people based on hypothetical mental health conditions. That's before we reach the fact that the only reason we're talking about this particular mental health condition was the hypothetical th…

Hi Thomas,

Just want to begin by saying I have a lot of respect for you and Matasano.

I think the fact that you think that it's inappropriate to discuss mental health at all is very telling of the main issue I have with all of this. Mental health shouldn't be taboo. I think people should be more open and willing to discuss their issues and any traits that they recognize in broad diagnostic criteria, and to seek treatment. Other first-world countries have a much better approach to mental health, and I don't see why there isn't a broader push in the United States to get to a similar point.

I knew three engineers who committed suicide, and I think they could have been saved if our current society didn't shame people for seeking treatment. I know most of my past and former coworkers work through their problems with self-medication or escapism, because seeking treatment is unthinkable and a sign of weakness.

I think it's wrong to just pretend like this hypothetical is impossible, and to follow a plan of action that doesn't account for bad actors and leaves their victims to fend for themselves.

My main bone to pick with BPD is that people with good intentions, either knowingly or unknowingly, enable those who have it because they belong to a group that they seek to protect, and can use that status as a shield to defend their irrational and abhorrent behavior. I think this is extremely dangerous. The root of this discussion was about the burden of proof resting completely on the accused. I don't know if anyone can even see that anymore since most of my posts have been flagged. That is the only thing I have a problem with, though I admit that I segued way too far towards posting about BPD simply because I used it for my hypothetical.

I think the vast majority of people who participate in modern society could benefit from therapy and mental health services, including myself. Surely some people have observed my posts in this thread, and think that I could benefit from therapy after having a traumatic experience with someone who had BPD. I'm inclined to agree, and I don't really have a good reason for why I haven't followed through. Talking about it online and spreading awareness definitely helps me.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#796

Post by dang »

balls187 wrote: post #704
dang wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've been a good community member and I'm sure what you're feeling is for good reason, but you can't post like this to HN. Especially not in a major thread about a divisive topic. I don't want to ban you because I'm sure this is temporary and we've all gone on tilt sometimes. So instead, I'm going to moderate a couple of your comments in addition to the one that was flag-killed above. If after a day or two you're s…

I fail to see how this is a divisive topic. In no circumstances is it ever okay to sexually harass a person.

I mean a topic that people have flamewars about.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#797

Post by xor1 »

DanBC wrote: post #780
xor1 wrote: post #753

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't a divorce.

I don't care. You're misusing diagnostic labels to malign a large group of people who face significant and harmful levels of stigma. You insist that your narrow experience is true of everyone with BDP; you don't frame your discussion as what happened to you but as what anyone else can expect from people with BDP.

>You're misusing diagnostic labels to malign a large group of people who face significant and harmful levels of stigma.

Are you going to explain why you think that stigma isn't deserved? Don't try to deflect with a comparison to racism or other bigotry. The havoc that BPDs wreak on others' is well documented, and I've personally lived through it. I really don't see how you can defend people with BPD and their actions without inadvertently defending pedophiles as well. But please do try.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#798

Post by dang »

xor1 wrote: post #795
tptacek wrote: post #774

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are way off the cliff of inappropriate conversations when we're: * Attributing mental health conditions to hypothetical strangers * Insinuating other commenters on HN have mental health conditions * Impugning entire groups of people based on hypothetical mental health conditions. That's before we reach the fact that the only reason we're talking about this particular mental health condition was the hypothetical th…

Hi Thomas, Just want to begin by saying I have a lot of respect for you and Matasano. I think the fact that you think that it's inappropriate to discuss mental health at all is very telling of the main issue I have with all of this. Mental health shouldn't be taboo. I think people should be more open and willing to discuss their issues and any traits that they recognize in broad diagnostic criteria, and to seek treat…

You're continuing to take this thread way off topic. When I told you this earlier, was it not clear that I was asking you to stop? Please stop now.

23 comments about this in a single thread, let alone this thread, is beyond the pale.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#799

Post by tptacek »

xor1 wrote: post #795
tptacek wrote: post #774

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are way off the cliff of inappropriate conversations when we're: * Attributing mental health conditions to hypothetical strangers * Insinuating other commenters on HN have mental health conditions * Impugning entire groups of people based on hypothetical mental health conditions. That's before we reach the fact that the only reason we're talking about this particular mental health condition was the hypothetical th…

Hi Thomas, Just want to begin by saying I have a lot of respect for you and Matasano. I think the fact that you think that it's inappropriate to discuss mental health at all is very telling of the main issue I have with all of this. Mental health shouldn't be taboo. I think people should be more open and willing to discuss their issues and any traits that they recognize in broad diagnostic criteria, and to seek treat…

You should feel free, where you're comfortable, to talk about your own struggles with mental health.

You should never be talking about someone else's. That's "taboo" for good reason. Threads where that happen invariably turn into insidious attacks not just on everyone purported to have whatever condition we're discussing, but, really, on everyone with mental health concerns of any sort.

I have no doubt you'll be able to generate 5 more paragraphs about how I've somehow missed some important aspect of what you're trying to say. Please, don't. I think Dan was right when he suggested you take a breath before continuing on this thread. Your posts are being flagged off the site for good reason.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#800

Post by xor1 »

tptacek wrote: post #799
xor1 wrote: post #795

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi Thomas, Just want to begin by saying I have a lot of respect for you and Matasano. I think the fact that you think that it's inappropriate to discuss mental health at all is very telling of the main issue I have with all of this. Mental health shouldn't be taboo. I think people should be more open and willing to discuss their issues and any traits that they recognize in broad diagnostic criteria, and to seek treat…

You should feel free, where you're comfortable, to talk about your own struggles with mental health. You should never be talking about someone else's. That's "taboo" for good reason. Threads where that happen invariably turn into insidious attacks not just on everyone purported to have whatever condition we're discussing, but, really, on everyone with mental health concerns of any sort. I have no doubt you'll be able…

>Threads where that happen invariably turn into insidious attacks not just on everyone purported to have whatever condition we're discussing, but, really, on everyone with mental health concerns of any sort.

You're probably going to think I'm crazy for saying this, but I think events like that are borderlines trying to drag everyone else down to their level. "Normal" people don't behave like that when others are trying to have a civil discussion that involves mutual exchanges of new ideas and information. You don't look crazy when you make everyone else look crazy as well. They're nuking discussions that could cause them to question themselves as self-defense, so they don't have to deal with them in the future.

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