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NYPD is canceling its Palantir contract

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Re: NYPD is canceling its Palantir contract

#181

Post by sidlls »

criddell wrote: post #149
sidlls wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hardly. I work in a company who's stack was Java from the beginning as a "scrappy startup." Some of the folks who have been here the longest are some of the first to jump on any heavyweight Enterprise Stack they can think of.

I think Java still makes a lot of sense on the server.

Sure it can make perfect sense. There are plenty of developers who know it well enough to be productive and it's certainly fast enough for typical server applications even at a large scale. It's the crufty heavyweight frameworks and ceremony around the ecosystems that can be a bit off, in my view. Also I'm not a fan of OO programming for most use cases. It has its place, like any paradigm, but I'm not convinced that place is as large in scope as others might think.

Re: NYPD is canceling its Palantir contract

#182

Post by CydeWeys »

criddell wrote: post #150
hueving wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java is one of the most widely used languages in the world. I get the impression that people who think using Java is an issue are usually just hiding their own inadequacies by repeating hype they read on the Internet.

Would you still use it on the client side today?

If I were developing a new game from scratch today then Java would be a contender. Look at the success of LWJGL for instance -- it's what powered Minecraft up until the Microsoft acquisition.

Other than playing around with that, I don't think I've done anything substantial with Java-based UIs running client-side since 2003 :/

Re: NYPD is canceling its Palantir contract

#183

Post by rapind »

nnq wrote: post #121
throwaway055 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard Palantir is maybe the most credentials-/prestige-focused tech company in Silicon Valley. I remember thinking that sounds like a good way to build a below-average team that seems very impressive from the outside. When you look at what they're doing, this strategy actually starts to make a lot of sense. They're selling a product that's somewhat incomprehensible. The value of that product is very difficult to…

> credentials and prestige are something tangible you can point to and prove you did your job Like in "nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM"? Seems like they've just copied a page from an the old book... and this still works, and lots of more competent startups who could do their jobs better will not get those contracts.

There are also probably lots of startups that would create a complete mess of it. Picking / evaluating vendors is hard and super risky for the average manager. While I personally would seek out more nimble vendors, I certainly understand the attraction to established shops.

Re: NYPD is canceling its Palantir contract

#184

Post by StevePerkins »

criddell wrote: post #150
hueving wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java is one of the most widely used languages in the world. I get the impression that people who think using Java is an issue are usually just hiding their own inadequacies by repeating hype they read on the Internet.

Would you still use it on the client side today?

Assuming that I can't get away with a web app, and need to install something native on the client side... is cross-platform support required?

If so, then your choices are:

1. Write separate native clients for Windows (in C#) and OS X (in Swift or Objective-C), and perhaps Linux (in whatever). It'll be hard to hire people who can work on all three, so you'll need more headcount and organizational/technical complexity.

2. Use a cross-platform framework like Qt, Wx, Gtk, etc. This will probably push you toward C++, which can be difficult to hire for. And you'll get constant complaints that the UI doesn't "look native enough" anyway.

3. Use Electron, and whichever JavaScript SPA framework is trendy this week. Have everyone on Hacker News declare your client to be "Flash for the Desktop", and be forced to re-write it with the next trendy framework two years later so that anyone will want to work for you.

4. Use JavaFX, and the JDK's built-in "javapackager" tool to create native installers for Windows, OS X, and Linux. Each of which includes a bundled JRE, with a size smaller than Electron. You won't be able to find a lot of JavaFX experience on the market... but Java developers are easy to find, and it only take a few weeks for decent ones to get up to speed with the framework.

Hell yeah, I'd use Java on the client side. None of the options are great, but Java's probably the least-bad.

Re: NYPD is canceling its Palantir contract

#185

Post by jhall1468 »

CydeWeys wrote: post #172
mattmanser wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java/Swing isn't even a data format, it's the interface tech. Nor is it outdated. Like, if you'd said COBOL it might be a valid point. It's as ignorant of basic technology as saying my car runs on a particular type of rubber so I can't use batteries. Honestly, for a tech site I'm ashamed this is the top comment, just seems to be an excuse to rag on Palantir and decry not using the present FOTM.

I moved from a "sexy" NodeJS stack at my last job to a staid Java 7 stack at my current job (we can't move to Java 8 until App Engine supports it). The code at my current job is much better written, is more thoroughly tested, and is more pleasant to continue development on. The codebase at my previous job was a rat's nest, caused primarily by lower-skilled developers, no time allocated to technical debt or refactorin…

I've always found it weird when people say stuff like this. Clearly your last team was bad, you even said the developers were less skilled, and time constraints were problems and yet you manage to blame tooling.

There's absolutely great test and CI tooling for JavaScript. The fact that you and your team didn't spend enough time to develop an expertise with them isn't the languages fault.

Re: NYPD is canceling its Palantir contract

#186

Post by [deleted] »

mattmanser wrote: post #161
svendisnigh wrote: post #13

Palantir has an outdated software stack (Java/Swing). Their genius lied in creating "mythical image" and cleverly overselling it to the less proficient government agencies (apparently NSA was smart enough to see through the ruse). And then in turn sell the "spooky/mysterious" image to bunch of naive Stanford/Berkeley undergrads and convince them to work for peanuts. Sadly in 2017, their tech stack is falling apart, t…

Java/Swing isn't even a data format, it's the interface tech. Nor is it outdated. Like, if you'd said COBOL it might be a valid point. It's as ignorant of basic technology as saying my car runs on a particular type of rubber so I can't use batteries. Honestly, for a tech site I'm ashamed this is the top comment, just seems to be an excuse to rag on Palantir and decry not using the present FOTM.

[deleted]

Re: NYPD is canceling its Palantir contract

#187

Post by bane »

svendisnigh wrote: post #13

Palantir has an outdated software stack (Java/Swing). Their genius lied in creating "mythical image" and cleverly overselling it to the less proficient government agencies (apparently NSA was smart enough to see through the ruse). And then in turn sell the "spooky/mysterious" image to bunch of naive Stanford/Berkeley undergrads and convince them to work for peanuts. Sadly in 2017, their tech stack is falling apart, t…

In support of your comment on ML/AI...quora has a post on that

https://www.quora.com/How-is-the-state-of-ML-in-Palantir/ans...

Re: NYPD is canceling its Palantir contract

#188

Post by trimbo »

tristanj wrote: post #78
avs733 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying he is unfairly negative or that there are so many such stories that it is a full time job?

Neither, it's a feedback loop. By writing negative stories, when company insiders have a scoop and they want to leak it, they know they can contact Mr. Alden because they've seen his previous articles on the company and his track record of not revealing leakers. Mr. Alden then writes an article using such leaked information, which generates buzz within the company (employees share these articles among themselves), re…

> WSJ's Christopher Weaver and Theranos

FWIW, I think it was primarily John Carreyrou. At least that's who Jesse Draper blames

https://twitter.com/JesseDraper/status/799108097675378688

Re: NYPD is canceling its Palantir contract

#189

Post by retox »

CydeWeys wrote: post #174
SeeDave wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of truth to this and they use rather unique (bordering on gimmicky) job titles such as 'Forward Deployed Engineer' as opposed to 'Solutions Engineer' or 'Technical Consultant' to add an aura of spooky government mystery and mask exactly what they do.

I think I lost some points with them a long time ago during an interview when, while trying to determine exactly what the "Forward Deployed Engineer" role that I was interviewing for actually meant, realized that it was actually just that of SWE consultant, a job which I'd previously held. So I kept referring to my extremely relevant experience from previously being a consultant, calling it as such, and that rubbed t…

It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!

- Upton Sinclair

Re: NYPD is canceling its Palantir contract

#190

Post by ansgri »

criddell wrote: post #150
hueving wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java is one of the most widely used languages in the world. I get the impression that people who think using Java is an issue are usually just hiding their own inadequacies by repeating hype they read on the Internet.

Would you still use it on the client side today?

As it seems, there are only two good options if you need a decent cross-platform desktop GUI without having the means to go full-custom for each platform. These are Java and Qt. I'm heavily biased towards Qt since all serious image processing in the world is still done in C++, but without this constraint, I'd like the safety and tooling support of Java.

Of course C# is just a much better Java, but AFAIK its crossplatform capabilities aren't mature. And it has a tendency to evolve a bit too fast. Your desktop codebase will probably live for at least 10 years, if not more, so it's better to start with a stable technology from the right family (i.e. not overly deficient from the modern perspective.. Qt somewhat fails on this front).

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