Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment • Hacker News Board

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#651

Post by azernik » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 1:58 PM UTC

pluma wrote: post #605

hanspeter wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But false accusations are possible about anything. By this logic VCs should avoid talking with anyone.

Sure, if you completely ignore the cultural context. Rape and sexual assault (of women) is seen as one of the worst possible crimes[0] a man can commit in most Western societies[1]. These crimes are so heinous that even accusations are enough to destroy someone's career and social status, even if the accusations are dropped or proven false. This is further complicated by these crimes generally being very difficult to…

The cultural context is pretty much the exact opposite. The cultural context is that men with power tend to get away with sexual harassment of subordinates for years before anyone gets caught. Only when there is a mountain of evidence and a small army of accusers does the world actually believe them.

For all of the VCs described in this story - this was a pattern, corroborated by independent sources, and with details in writing. There is in fact a very high burden of proof before anyone even gets blasted in the mainstream media, let alone fired.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#652

Post by yawaramin » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 1:59 PM UTC

deegles wrote: post #156

auganov wrote: post #106

"Apologies" like Chris Sacca's [0] don't make you too hopeful. Often I have committed as their first limited partner and encouraged them to use my name and participation to attract other investment. I’ve introduced them to my fund’s most loyal investors and made sure they have had the opportunity to make their case rather than get lost in an inbox. I’ve also connected them to our trusted service providers saving them…

What would be enough to you?

It would be great if him and his ilk would stop sexually harassing women.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#653

Post by 02399diii8d8 » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 2:01 PM UTC

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #168

dkarl wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think cringe is the wrong word. We cringe when we watch The Office and see people make social mistakes without meaning to. These are not unwitting social mistakes. This is people being assholes because they know they can get away with it. Furthermore, not having met any of these people but speculating based on my experience, I would guess that their motivations go beyond just looking for sex and knowing that one ti…

I know many people like that, and no, they don't derive an enjoyable power trip out of being rejected at all. Theybdon't know they can get away with it. They don't know that they are doing it . These people are rarely evil and predatory. They usually genuinely believe that the behavior they are exhibiting is desireable. They think that this is how the game is played, and these things are a form of peacocking. They th…

Ughh...

this becomes so complicated.

In my line of work, which involves authority positions, I see this sort of thing happen a lot (not most of the time, but regularly):

Junior female supervisee becomes romantically involved with male supervisor. It's consensual, not predatory at all. Two people working closely together in closely related positions (I'm not talking CEO-secretary here, I'm talking something more closely matched in rank). Female supervisee might even brag about it or something in informal circles. It's obvious that part of what is happening is that the woman is attracted to ambition, authority, power, etc., even if they don't acknowledge this openly at the time (after all, they are seeking this for themselves). Relationship goes south (not always, though, about as often as any relationship), and then female supervisee blames male supervisor for taking advantage of her, brainwashing her, etc. Maybe even accuse supervisor of sexual harassment.

What I'm seeing in the NY Times piece is not this. None of the people I'm talking about would ever just proposition a potential hire.

However, I think it increases the ambiguity about appropriate behavior. If women in these positions are actively encouraging relationships sometimes (and people hear about this, in sorts of open secret situations), then for people who are already confused, it becomes even more confusing.

My guess is these guys are hitting on women in the same way they might anywhere, without realizing the position of power they have. As you say, I think it's a matter of social sophistication more than anything else.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#654

Post by bt4u2 » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 2:01 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #645

bt4u2 wrote: post #631

This is silly. Don't reduce me to some risk averse weakling because I'm not willing to put my neck out for strangers for little to no reward. If you're like that, and you regularly go to Africa to help people, more power to you. I'm not. Most people are not.

> I'm not willing to put my neck out for strangers for little to no reward Part of my point is that is often exactly what is required of leaders.

No good leader is taking unnecessary risks. In fact, if you study history, taking unnecessary risks has been the downfall of many otherwise great leaders

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#655

Post by sokoloff » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 2:09 PM UTC

bt4u2 wrote: post #654

sokoloff wrote: post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not willing to put my neck out for strangers for little to no reward Part of my point is that is often exactly what is required of leaders.

No good leader is taking unnecessary risks. In fact, if you study history, taking unnecessary risks has been the downfall of many otherwise great leaders

IMO, everyone who has left a steady job to found a company has taken an unnecessary risk.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#656

Post by CSMastermind » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 2:09 PM UTC

I've known Marc Canter for almost two decades now. I've been to his house, out to dinner with him, in classes he's taught, and at startups he's been a part of. I have never once seen him hit on anyone. He's also not a particularly powerful person in silicon valley. He is very socially awkward, however.

I'd, personally, like to see the proof before I condemn the man.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#657

Post by acdha » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 2:10 PM UTC

jaredklewis wrote: post #396

jbmorgado wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "If you're really truly worried about false accusations then here's another fix you can have for free: record your meetings, texts, emails, and calls with founders and/or don't meet alone." Well, there are two problems with that. 1 - It puts the burden of proof on the accused. I.E. it totally throws out of the window what has become a de facto human right and an universally established legal one in every democracy:…

As has been pointed out, no one is suggesting non-consensual recording. Starting a meeting with, "do you mind if I record this?" is hardly alien. As for burden of proof, I don't see it. It's like saying that asking people to lock their houses is a burden, when thieves are the criminals. If you are a VC having a meeting with a founder, arrange for for more than 2 people to be there, such as a co-VC, a co-founder, a se…

The burden argument seems really disingenuous given the context. This is a business meeting, not picking dinner with your friends, and the process is full of negotiation, records, and witnesses. Would anyone protest writing down terms or having a secretary at the meeting to avoid the chance of a contractual dispute later?

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#658

Post by ig1 » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 2:14 PM UTC

I feel deeply uncomfortable on 500 Startups positions on this (https://500.co/making-changes-at-500/) for four reasons:

1) 500Startups considered these issues to be serious enough to remove McClure from his role but didn't publicly disclose this. This meant that he presumably could continue to meet female founders and other WIT while still appearing to be in a position of power.

2) A number of LPs in 500 have stated that they were not told this change had happened and the reasons why. This suggests that 500 were trying to keep this as quiet as possible.

3) McClure continued to represent 500Startups in his official role after his apparent removal. A few weeks ago he was deeply involved in the launch of 500Melbourne in Australia.

4) Eight days ago Tsai tweeted "Binary Capital's Justin Caldbeck accused of unwanted sexual advances towards female founders. Where's the outrage?" while at the same time being fully aware that 500Startups was not disclosing McClure's behaviour.

500 Startups has done good work in the past on diversity but this appears to extend beyond McClure and they need to adopt full disclosure and address what from the outside could look like an attempt to cover-up inappropriate behaviour.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#659

Post by naasking » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 2:15 PM UTC

mirimir wrote: post #607

jimnotgym wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see the relevance. Asking a random stranger for sex is certainly outside of our normal social conventions, but this is not the same as using your power and position to coerce someone into having sex with you.

I consider them both to be sociopathic. Asking random women for sex is arguably also coercive. Edit: I note that smart robbers and rapists scope potential victims by making innocent requests. Then escalating.

> Asking random women for sex is arguably also coercive.

Asking is coercion now? I'd like to hear that argument.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#660

Post by jessaustin » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 2:15 PM UTC

tajen wrote: post #486

voidlogic wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nope. These people are being assholes because they ARE assholes. To be fair, even an asshole may show some restraint when they have a clear understanding of consequences. Thinking their money buys them immunity from consequence is an enabler as they don't believe they have the slightest need for this kind of rational self-interest. You are both right, an asshole is an asshole as you suggest, but even so, assholes ar…

Men need to work hard to jail those assholes, here's why: They are the reason why men are described as generally threatening, discrediting and imposing huge constraints in advance on all men who show proper social restraint and respect for women.

Men aren't going to be on the front line of this for the same reason white people aren't on the front line of combating racism [0]: even if we don't do awful things one side effect of which is to reinforce privilege, we still benefit from that privilege. A woman seeking funding has to worry about all the things a man seeking funding has to worry about, plus she has to deal with being pressured into sex. That's not great for society, but it is an advantage for men.

[0] as a white man, it is my privilege to make sweeping statements about whites and men b^)