Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment • Hacker News Board

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#591

Post by imartin2k » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 11:08 AM UTC

dkarl wrote: post #44

rl3 wrote: post #7

This entire article is a smorgasbord of cringe: > During the recruiting process, Mr. McClure, a founder of 500 Startups and an investor, sent her a Facebook message that read in part, “I was getting confused figuring out whether to hire you or hit on you.” One would think having the phrases "hire you" and "hit on you" in the same sentence when communicating with someone undergoing recruitment at your company would be…

I think cringe is the wrong word. We cringe when we watch The Office and see people make social mistakes without meaning to. These are not unwitting social mistakes. This is people being assholes because they know they can get away with it. Furthermore, not having met any of these people but speculating based on my experience, I would guess that their motivations go beyond just looking for sex and knowing that one ti…

If we replace the word "asshole" with "criminals", few except a couple of hardline conservatives would assume that one's destiny in life is being a criminal from the day you are born. Instead, as far as I understand most research, lots of external factors play a major role here.

That probably is exactly the same here. These men have been socially conditioned to be assholes. Which, in my eyes, means that there actually should be room for some empathy. Which doesn't mean excusing their behavior, but it means understanding that despite their power and money, they are like every other human being the product of their environment and culture.

And this culture is a joint product of every single member of it.

Mark Manson wrote an insightful essay about this, titled "What's the problem with men". Tl;dr: "We unfairly objectify women in society for their beauty and sex appeal. Similarly, we unfairly objectify men for their professional success and aggression."

https://markmanson.net/whats-the-problem-with-men

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#592

Post by bjourne » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 11:09 AM UTC

scott_s wrote: post #293

stcredzero wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know many people like that, and no, they don't derive an enjoyable power trip out of being rejected at all. Theybdon't know they can get away with it. They don't know that they are doing it. These people are rarely evil and predatory. They usually genuinely believe that the behavior they are exhibiting is desirable. Basically, power corrupts. Being a boss, an investor, or an employer comes with power. Just having t…

Saying no directly is uncomfortable - socially and potentially professionally. That's not because of "norms" but because of reality. Rejecting someone directly is socially awkward and potentially dangerous. It's not the responsibility of the person being pursued to protect the pursuer. It's pretty straight forward: if you ask someone out several times, and they keep making up excuses, they're not interested. Stop ask…

I disagree. The robustness principle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_principle) or some permutation of it is used in virtually all communication systems and media channels. The burden is clearly on the sender of the message to be precise, not on the receiver to interpret a noisy message. I can't think of any situation, except for dating, where the burden is placed on the receiver.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#593

Post by XorNot » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 11:09 AM UTC

freeflight wrote: post #581

dkarl wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think cringe is the wrong word. We cringe when we watch The Office and see people make social mistakes without meaning to. These are not unwitting social mistakes. This is people being assholes because they know they can get away with it. Furthermore, not having met any of these people but speculating based on my experience, I would guess that their motivations go beyond just looking for sex and knowing that one ti…

> This is people being assholes because they know they can get away with it. > I would guess that their motivations go beyond just looking for sex and knowing that one time in twenty it will work. > Those are the people we call bullies, whether their acts are criminal or not. Spot on, sadly a much overlooked and ignored fact. While "sexism" certainly feeds into that, it's not the actual problem, the problem being tha…

Simple question: do you commit sexual harassment? If no, this is not about you. The existence of this conversation is not aimed at you.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#594

Post by johncolanduoni » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 11:09 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #216

For everyone who is wondering why these people act the way they do, the answer is that their actions work some of the time . Otherwise, why would they do it if they continually strike out? What one person might see as harassment, another might see as an exciting "chase". I've known women who have had guys be very aggressive (it's a fine line) and they were quite taken by it. This of course is not excusing the behavio…

I don't think this is true in general. When people have a deeply ingrained notion of How X is Supposed to Work behavior can persist through a massive amount of evidence as to its ineffectiveness. Also just because you realize something isn't working doesn't mean you know what you need to alter to get something more effective. A lot of people who fall into the aggressive PUA-adjacent universe respond to their tactics not working by thinking "must have not been aggressive enough".

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#595

Post by lawnchair_larry » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 11:10 AM UTC

watwut wrote: post #436

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know many people like that, and no, they don't derive an enjoyable power trip out of being rejected at all. Theybdon't know they can get away with it. They don't know that they are doing it . These people are rarely evil and predatory. They usually genuinely believe that the behavior they are exhibiting is desireable. They think that this is how the game is played, and these things are a form of peacocking. They th…

Nope. Are you trying thay rape culture is a thing and dudes really need special courses on how to not be harassers? That does not describe or culture or majority of dudes in any way. Our culture is full of signals that harassment is wrong. It is also quite unlikely that people who climb the ladder and successfully play "impress investors and people around" social skills game are so clueless magically when they are al…

Stopped reading at "rape culture". Nothing I said has anything to do with rape (except Bill Cosby, who was mentioned specifically to emphasize that these comments don't apply to cases like that), and neither of the individuals involved have been accused of rape or anything resembling rape so I don't know why you'd bring that up.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#596

Post by jimnotgym » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 11:10 AM UTC

benevol wrote: post #524

epalmer wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how many people in power or have strong influence are psychopaths or sociopaths. I've had the misfortune to observe a psychopath in the workplace and in this case they touch people a lot. They touch people of the opposite sex more than same sex but they touch a lot of people. I wonder what is being said behind closed doors. I have friend who is an employment lawyer. When I first asked her what she does she s…

It actually goes in both directions: Statistics have shown for a while now that psychopaths or sociopaths are drawn to positions of power and are therefor overrepresented in those positions. On the other hand, excessive power (== money) often brings the worst out of us, as power appeals to our (sick/immature) need to dominate those around us (on a personal or even global scale). Domination can act like a drug. And on…

I am reminded of the Stanford prison experiment

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#597

Post by ikt » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 11:13 AM UTC

freeflight wrote: post #581

dkarl wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think cringe is the wrong word. We cringe when we watch The Office and see people make social mistakes without meaning to. These are not unwitting social mistakes. This is people being assholes because they know they can get away with it. Furthermore, not having met any of these people but speculating based on my experience, I would guess that their motivations go beyond just looking for sex and knowing that one ti…

> This is people being assholes because they know they can get away with it. > I would guess that their motivations go beyond just looking for sex and knowing that one time in twenty it will work. > Those are the people we call bullies, whether their acts are criminal or not. Spot on, sadly a much overlooked and ignored fact. While "sexism" certainly feeds into that, it's not the actual problem, the problem being tha…

Glad to know I'm not alone

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#598

Post by coldtea » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 11:15 AM UTC

ronilan wrote: post #95

dkarl wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think cringe is the wrong word. We cringe when we watch The Office and see people make social mistakes without meaning to. These are not unwitting social mistakes. This is people being assholes because they know they can get away with it. Furthermore, not having met any of these people but speculating based on my experience, I would guess that their motivations go beyond just looking for sex and knowing that one ti…

> This is people being assholes because they know they can get away with it. Nope. These people are being assholes because they ARE assholes. Never attribute to rational decision making what can be attributed to rotten character.

>These people are being assholes because they ARE assholes. Never attribute to rational decision making what can be attributed to rotten character.

This kind of thinking is even worse than what they did, because it crystalizes them into some of their decisions and deprives them of being human.

While their acts are bullying, harassment, etc., this characterization is not that different to labelling a race inferior (or attributing some other characteristic as an unshakeable part of it). Only instead of a race it does that to a person (or a number of persons) based on past behavior.

People change, people can behave like assholes in one instance and be sweet and caring in another, and tons of other distinctions.

In the end, this type of thinking is what condemns those convicted in the US to inhuman treatment -- the belief that they are incorrigible because of something they did, and as thus deserve only hell.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#599

Post by ergo14 » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 11:19 AM UTC

morgante wrote: post #490

rorykoehler wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men don't either.

Yes, being single forever is indeed an option. Men should learn to deal with rejection, but let's not pretend that they don't have the burden of initiating. I've literally never been asked out by a woman in my life.

Maybe you didn't meet the right person yet.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#600

Post by worldofeunuchs » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 11:24 AM UTC

danblick wrote: post #544

worldofeunuchs wrote: post #510

Why I never read of men sexually harassed by a woman? Isn’t that suspicious that something is not right?

Your comment reminds me of reading something, I think maybe from Judith Donath, about how throw-away accounts tend to be bad for online communities. Something like ~ https://www.wired.com/2014/04/why-we-need-online-alter-egos-...

thanks for the sidetrack link. I am eager to read your comment on my question.