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Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

nytimes.com

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Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#581

Post by freeflight »

dkarl wrote: post #44
rl3 wrote: post #7

This entire article is a smorgasbord of cringe: > During the recruiting process, Mr. McClure, a founder of 500 Startups and an investor, sent her a Facebook message that read in part, “I was getting confused figuring out whether to hire you or hit on you.” One would think having the phrases "hire you" and "hit on you" in the same sentence when communicating with someone undergoing recruitment at your company would be…

I think cringe is the wrong word. We cringe when we watch The Office and see people make social mistakes without meaning to. These are not unwitting social mistakes. This is people being assholes because they know they can get away with it. Furthermore, not having met any of these people but speculating based on my experience, I would guess that their motivations go beyond just looking for sex and knowing that one ti…

> This is people being assholes because they know they can get away with it.

> I would guess that their motivations go beyond just looking for sex and knowing that one time in twenty it will work.

> Those are the people we call bullies, whether their acts are criminal or not.

Spot on, sadly a much overlooked and ignored fact. While "sexism" certainly feeds into that, it's not the actual problem, the problem being that "assholes" often end up being very successful people because they can easily force their will upon others, regardless of gender.

This is the very same dynamic which leads to "assholes" being way overrepresented in CEO positions: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-small-business/wp/201...

These are ruthless personalities and their success is often build upon exactly that ruthlessness. Why should the silicon valley vc ecosystem be exempt from that dynamic? It seems it ain't: https://www.saastr.com/are-silicon-valley-venture-capitalist...

As a male, on the short end of that naturally existing power dynamic, you are flat out of luck because you can't point at your gender and generate drama to monetize on or take whole companies down, instead you are lumped up into a big sack as part of the supposedly "systematic problem" by labeling it a "male dominated culture", taking every male person into a quasi sippenhaft trough guild by gender association in the "fight against sexism".

As somebody who considers himself a somewhat decent person, this whole tone in the discourse is getting rather tiresome because this also creates quite an oppressive environment for people who merely want to find a relationship partner. I feel guilty just thinking about approaching women on the street, I've rebuffed advances by female coworkers because that's not considered "appropriate", I don't want to approach that nice cashier in the supermarket because I fear I might bother her/creep her out. And because I've always been rather awkward with social situations, the outcome is quite predictable: I've been single for these last 10 years, while constantly being told how much of an asshole I'm for having been born with a dick.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#582

Post by DanBC »

xor1 wrote: post #400
dang wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's off topic. You're trying to make the conversation be about something else—I assume in a completely well-intentioned way, but this isn't the place for it.

I accept that it's off-topic and I don't dispute your decision to detach the thread. And I do appreciate the effort you put into moderating HN. But that entry linked by cbhl doesn't help his argument. I still think BPD is a valid concern, though. I'd really like to sincerely ask if you've had a run-in with it yet.

> I'd really like to sincerely ask if you've had a run-in with it yet. reply

Yes, I've met many people with borderline personality disorder.

I helped the English NHS create their KUF (Knowledge and Understanding Framework) for borderline personality disorder; I campaign for services to better meet the needs of people with BPD.

What you're saying is ignorant bollocks.

False accusations are not more common among people with BPD, and false accusations are rare.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#583

Post by watwut »

manfredo wrote: post #554
watwut wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it okay for me to call anyone who asks me out harassers in order to discourage subsequent approaches? The word harassment does not even appear in parent comment. Neither is HR. You added it to shift the topic which is an open and easy to see lie. "You are making me uncomfortable" and "fire him hr please" are not nearly the same. For that matter, rational is different category then "fair". Unfair or even unethica…

> The word harassment does not even appear in parent comment. Neither is HR. You added it to shift the topic which is an open and easy to see lie. "You are making me uncomfortable" and "fire him hr please" are not nearly the same. Please re-read my original comment in this chain, I'm dealing with two hypotheticals depending on what exactly is said. > In this story she unambiguously informed him that he is making her…

> Depending on what exactly is phrased it may also be feedback conveying "there is a good chance I am telling HR you're harassing me." Again, as per my original comment I'm describing my opinion of the situation depending on what exactly is said.

Well then, leave her alone.

However, she literally said "you are making me uncomfortable". That is neither threat nor rude. It is literally direct and honest communication.

You are not trying to dissuade indirect speaking, you are complaining that she started to talk directly when indirect failed.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#584

Post by jimnotgym »

ubernostrum wrote: post #457
adamsea wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does their niceness in other situations matter?

It matters because it creates a situation where one set of people have an awful experience with someone, and another set all say "well, in my experience he's perfectly nice and would certainly never do something like that..."

I suppose the fact that they are assholes in one situation but behave respectably in another is what makes this discrimination? If they were assholes to everyone then....

I think it is an interesting thing I see with successful people that they often attribute too much of there success to their personalities and too little to luck and circumstances. This makes them believe their own bullshit about how great they are, and how bad other people are.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#585

Post by jimnotgym »

js8 wrote: post #279
notjack wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why does their behavior disproportionately affect women, who have less power to complain about their behavior? If this were entirely an aspect of their character or personality they'd be an asshole to everyone equally, not opportunistically take advantage of people who have less ability to stop them.

> they'd be an asshole to everyone equally I think they often are. But you don't hear about it, because almost no one cares about males at the bottom of the social ladder. At the bottom, men are "valued" (for a lack of a better word) even less than women.

Or perhaps being an asshole to someone in the mailroom because you didn't like the way round a letter was put on your table is not in the same scale of things as trying to coerce someone to have sex with you

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#586

Post by peoplewindow »

rorykoehler wrote: post #561
morgante wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, being single forever is indeed an option. Men should learn to deal with rejection, but let's not pretend that they don't have the burden of initiating. I've literally never been asked out by a woman in my life.

It's pretty evenly balanced in my social circles. Perhaps there is something else at play?

Probably culture.

I've been pretty successful with women in my life; whilst I was nerdy as a teenager things changed and I've since had a lot of luck with women.

In Europe, where I live, I have never been asked out by a woman that I can recall, despite having had plenty of girlfriends here and good relationships. Men always have to make the first move. The most extreme case of this was when I briefly dated a Russian woman. She had recently divorced with a young kid, and was incredibly beautiful - I couldn't believe my luck when we got together. But I kept asking her out on dates, we'd do a date, it'd be fantastic, and she'd go home the next morning ... without suggesting we meet up, or informing me of her plans, or even what she liked to do really. She'd just go home. At the time I figured she maybe just wanted some fun and didn't wish to begin another relationship so soon after ending her marriage. I took it as a hint that causal dating was fine but she didn't want me intruding on her family time. So eventually I stopped asking her out on dates. I was looking for something more serious and was hoping for her to suggest something she'd like to do instead of always waiting for me, but it wasn't happening. I found out later via mutual friends that she was quite upset when our dating stopped and she'd been hoping it'd get serious. Just that in Russian culture, men are expected to take the lead and tell the woman what's going to happen to a much greater degree than in my own culture, and I'd totally misread her.

However, in America, I've been asked out by women. It's a vastly more forthright culture where "sassy" women are lauded and "go getting" is seen as the way forward.

Given how international tech workplaces are, you're getting vastly different dating cultures and expectations mixed together on a daily basis, in an environment where many men don't get to meet many women. I work in tech but virtually all my dating has been with women I met outside of work. But my colleagues often don't have a social life outside of their colleagues.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#587

Post by jimnotgym »

mirimir wrote: post #535

Yes, this is it, I think. I knew this guy, many years ago, who bragged about walking up to random women, and asking if they'd like to have sex. He said that he got slapped a lot, but also had lots of sex. I think that he was just BSing, but who knows?

I don't see the relevance. Asking a random stranger for sex is certainly outside of our normal social conventions, but this is not the same as using your power and position to coerce someone into having sex with you.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#588

Post by qb45 »

algesten wrote: post #576
drawnwren wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're pretty close to 100% correct here. My one addition would be that with our level of connectedness, it would require an insane amount of self control for an individual (male) to be of the mindset 'I take the things I want at work' and not have slip ups of the sort we're seeing here (inappropriate messages etc.) Because this disclaimer seems necessary in posts like this, I am in no way condoning his actio…

Oh. You're one of those people: "I'm automatically attracted to beautiful [women]—I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything ... Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything."

To some extent he may be describing the phenomenon otherwise known as "groupies", to some extent he obviously was taking it too far.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#589

Post by lawnchair_larry »

algesten wrote: post #576
drawnwren wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're pretty close to 100% correct here. My one addition would be that with our level of connectedness, it would require an insane amount of self control for an individual (male) to be of the mindset 'I take the things I want at work' and not have slip ups of the sort we're seeing here (inappropriate messages etc.) Because this disclaimer seems necessary in posts like this, I am in no way condoning his actio…

Oh. You're one of those people: "I'm automatically attracted to beautiful [women]—I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything ... Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything."

Your comment is totally inappropriate, not to mention ridiculous, and essentially amounts to a silly personal attack. No rational reading of anything he wrote could possibly suggest that he does or condones that. In fact you'd have to entirely ignore the sentence where he specifically says the opposite. Comments like this make it very difficult to have important discussions about these topics.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#590

Post by mattzito »

curun1r wrote: post #556
zbraniecki wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article, and this conversation is about one pathology. You bring up a different one and say "we should treat them equally!" - that's not very different from the "all lives matter" bullshit. Sexism and discrimination of women in tech industry is a massive problem. What you described probably exists in some cases, but is not a) related to the problem at hand and b) orders of magnitude less profound. By bringing it…

Everyone keeps mistaking my meaning. I'm not trying to excuse the behavior or say that it's okay. I've repeatedly condemned it. But we need to decide what we want as a result of bringing this kind of behavior out into the open. Do we want to punish and ostracize the guilty or do we want to minimize the occurrence of this behavior going forward? If it's the former, then by all means get out your pitchforks and we can…

> Do we want to punish and ostracize the guilty

Yup, that one.

> or do we want to minimize the occurrence of this behavior going forward?

False equivalence. I would imagine if VCs and investors get the message that if they hit on women they'll be fired, they'll stop doing it.

> I'm not trying to blame the women who try to use their sexuality to their advantage or even those that engage in consensual relationships with men in a position of power. But because those instances exist and these men have likely witnessed them personally, even if they're rare, they create the possibility in the minds of these men.

Okay, so to combat this "pathology", we'll say, "If you engage sexually with someone who approached you in a professional context, consensually or otherwise, you're fired". Seems easy enough, and that takes care of the problem.

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