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Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

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Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#61

Post by watwut »

imaginenore wrote: post #3

As a really poor immigrant to the US who succeeded financially, I can tell you with absolute certainty, poverty in the US (barring mental illness cases or health issues) is the result of poor choices. Most of it stems from society's lack of planning for the future of the young people. Young people are consistently being told lies like "you can be anything you want", forgetting to tell them that most of the fun choice…

Majority of students go for practical degrees - business and such. They follow market. Non practical students (gender studies, history of art) tend to be clustered in top schools and students tend to be from wealthy families.

Blaming population of young students for economy is worst then red herring.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#62

Post by function_seven »

haberman wrote: post #30
droopyEyelids wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know... there are such things as facts. In 2014, "Vulnerable Populations" made up 80% of the poor in the USA. That essentially means children and the elderly. On top of that, it's like another 7% of people that are in poverty that are fully employed! http://www.demos.org/blog/10/23/15/2014-vulnerable-populatio...

Nov 7, 2016 "fact": Hillary Clinton has a 98.2% chance of winning the presidency: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/polls-hillary-clinton-wi... There are facts, but it does them no service to overstate what the evidence actually says.

Different pundits had different odds on that race. No matter which one you go with, what makes you think those odds weren’t true facts?

Remember, n=1 in this scenario.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#63

Post by rifung »

imaginenore wrote: post #3

As a really poor immigrant to the US who succeeded financially, I can tell you with absolute certainty, poverty in the US (barring mental illness cases or health issues) is the result of poor choices. Most of it stems from society's lack of planning for the future of the young people. Young people are consistently being told lies like "you can be anything you want", forgetting to tell them that most of the fun choice…

> Most of it stems from society's lack of planning for the future of the young people.

Doesn't this mean that it's actually NOT the result of poor choices, or at least the type of choices people generally accuse people of like being lazy or spending beyond their means? This seems more like a societal problem.

I suppose it's true that it's the result of someone's choices but it seems unfair to pin it on the people who don't know better. Then again, I studied CS because it was practical and work at a great company but I always find myself wanting to do something else.

Maybe the problem is that everyone keeps listening to the people who say follow your passion when the reality is that not everyone's passion will lead to something that can pay the bills. Frankly, it should totally be okay to not be in love with your job and do it because you need to.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#64

Post by 5thaccount »

haberman wrote: post #11

The more time goes by, the more I am wary of the false dilemma. Almost anytime I see someone argue "you might think it's because of X, but it's really because of Y," the person speaking is selling a particular ideology. That ideology magnifies Y and minimizes X. It would be perfectly fine to say "you might be aware of X, but you should also be aware of Y." But pieces like this don't do that. They seek to tell you you…

These articles also sell it without a solution. "It isn't X, it is Y. I have no idea how to fix Y, or a single policy idea to suggest, but, yeh, definitely Y."

We are all obsessed with what policy makes us feel, rather than its impact. Example: Seattle minimum wage laws https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.meer/posts/101031868860665... let me quote here:

> This is the official study that was commissioned several years ago by the city of Seattle to study the impacts of raising the minimum wage, in a move that I applauded at the time as an honest and transparent attempt towards self-examination of a bold policy. > The losses were so dramatic that this increase "reduced income paid to low-wage employees of single-location Seattle businesses by roughly $120 million on an annual basis." On average, low-wage workers lost $125 per month.

So the official government study found this to be an horrific law for the poor. So we'll accept this, roll it back and move on yeh? Of course not!

> This paper not only makes numerous valuable contributions to the economics literature, but should give serious pause to minimum wage advocates. Of course, that's not what's happening, to the extent that the mayor of Seattle commissioned another study, by an advocacy group at Berkeley whose previous work on the minimum wage is so consistently one-sided that you can set your watch by it, that unsurprisingly finds no effect. They deliberately timed its release for several days before this paper came out, and I find that whole affair abhorrent. Seattle politicians are so unwilling to accept reality that they'll undermine their own researchers and waste taxpayer dollars on what is barely a cut above propoganda (sic).

Now, here's a policy aimed directly at the poor, that we are researching well, and the findings are being thrown out because, well why if not because "my feelings". Maybe it is because the political climate won;t accept the decision, but how is that better than climate deniers on the right? It seems to me both sides of politics are deniers of inconvenient truths.

So I am done with articles that aim to explain, raise awareness, shine a light on etc. I want tangible, actionable policy with a measurement framework in place that we as a society both believe and accept. If society tries a UBI, and it proves bad for society for what ever pre-decided reason, we should ditch it. Policy -> measurement -> keep or drop -> repeat. That's what I want.

Sadly, that is a bridge way too far these days.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#65

Post by RobertoG »

Godel_unicode wrote: post #31
maxwin wrote: post #5

It is both a personal choice and a reflection of society. I am not sure which one has bigger weight. But if you live in the US , are not physically impaired, and high school educated. Personal choice definitely has much more weight. I know many friends who come to US from Myanmar. Don't speak English , no degrees. But almost all of them live above average several years later. But they sure need to work really hard.

I anecdotally know far more people who coast and don't do well than I know who either coast and do well or don't coast and don't do well. I think part of the problem is a combination of a bias against impugning others effort because "you don't know their struggle" and just enough counter examples (where hard work doesn't pay off) to feed confirmation bias. The question that I have is this: is the growing narrative ab…

I think you are complicated the issue too much.

Who cares if a society it's a meritocracy or not? The point, it seems to me, is, is it a meritocracy that work for most of the people? Because what is the point of a society that doesn't work for most of the people?

I know that if I train hard every day I could improve my 100m sprinter time. I also know that never mind what I do, not in a million years I could beat Usain Bolt.

If we live in societies where the life of the average guy improve at the same time that the pie grows there is not a problem.

If we live in a society where, even when the pie grow my life is worst, and when I complain, you point to Usain Bolt and say "see? it can be done!"; well, I don't think that it's going to work for long.

It seems to me that feeling explain a lot of the "populist" movements around the world.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#66

Post by SamUK96 »

dlwdlw wrote: post #54

I'm not sure the proportion, but there do exist certain people who are self destructive yet also self entitled. It's the state of mind that drives a person to gamble everything they own. Either the universe agrees with then and they do become the greatest person they think they are, or more likely, they fail and wallow in rage. In a way, it's like a child throwing a tantrum, threatening all sorts of things, knowing t…

I found some of your comments quite insightful, especially about varying stabilising forces for varying income/social classes.

I think the old (paraphrased) quote is relavent here: A rich man saves up for a £300 pair of new shoes that will last him a decade, while a poor man buys a £5 pair of boots every month because they wear down quickly.

Honestly, being able to fix some things is one of the most important traits to have if you want to save money. Learn some motor maintenance skills (well, with DRM'ed cars now that may be a bit harder), basic shoe repairs, computer repair, woodwork, etc.

I think we've lost our way with technology somewhat (and i'm a young millenial!). I see my dad and how he helped build some of the rooms in our house, did basic diagnostics for our car when it acted up, made our home's wooden stair railing from scratch. And he worked as a manager for a small basic factory. I can't see anybody my age being able to even just sand some rough edges down from freshly-cut wood, or being able to jack-up a car. It's depressing what advanced technology and increased societal specialisation has done to us younger generations...

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#67

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

unsigner wrote: post #42
analog31 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oddly enough, I'm the first to admit that I've achieved my level of income by luck, and without hard work. I was lucky to have two educated parents, their wealth to fall back on, and an affluent, healthy environment to grow up in. My parents paid for my undergraduate education, and the government paid for my graduate degree. I "work" in a nice office, by playing with equations and gadgets, and talking to people. Mean…

Being born to two educated parents is not luck on your part, but well deserved reward for a long, concerted effort on theirs. You're not a random happening on a clean slate; you're just the latest offshoot of a family.

Maybe there is a philosophical divide between us, but this argument sounds really weird to me.

From his/her point of view, of course being born to educated parents is luck, if not what else is it? We don't have any choice or any influence on the matter of who we are born to, and we cannot change it with our effort or lack of it.

The fact that from their parents' point of view it's not luck, because they worked for it, strikes me as irrelevant in this context. It can be relevant in a societal context but the post you reply to was talking about the success of an individual and how it can come just by luck, without that individual working especially hard for it.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#68

Post by coldtea »

hueving wrote: post #37
analog31 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oddly enough, I'm the first to admit that I've achieved my level of income by luck, and without hard work. I was lucky to have two educated parents, their wealth to fall back on, and an affluent, healthy environment to grow up in. My parents paid for my undergraduate education, and the government paid for my graduate degree. I "work" in a nice office, by playing with equations and gadgets, and talking to people. Mean…

Physical effort has no (and should not have) a bearing on how much you are paid. Work smarter, not harder. A society doesn't advance if everyone spends all day digging ditches with spoons.

You'd be surprised how fast a society can collapse if it's left to wannabe Einsteins and Feynmans and Elon Musks and nobody is there to dig ditches, clean the garbage and work the assembly line.

Or how better a society would be without tons of well paid white collar jobs (advertisers for one).

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#69

Post by RobertoG »

EdSharkey wrote: post #41
mc32 wrote: post #12

I have no idea how to solve the poverty issue. I don't think there is a way other than subsidizing a portion of the population. Even in Soviet Russia you had some very dedicated people (say scientists and bureaucrats who made things happen) and you also had very unproductive people who retained jobs they had contempt for. That said, with regard to health wellbeing we need a few things: -Reduce costs (cost per person…

Government regulations created the twisted non-market for healthcare that exists in the united states. Pretty please don't sign us up for more government. You know there are 7 big health care providers in my state building spectacular facilities as fast as they can, and they don't have to compete with each other? There's no competition. Every pleb goes dutifully to the assigned provider his employer sends him to. You…

Reading your comment, it just occurred to me that I don't know if there is any country where healthcare works well without government intervention.

We always talk about the USA vs. Europe, but I don't know if there are other examples that we can borrow.

When you talk about market directed healthcare, do you have any example in mind?

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#70

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

EdSharkey wrote: post #41
mc32 wrote: post #12

I have no idea how to solve the poverty issue. I don't think there is a way other than subsidizing a portion of the population. Even in Soviet Russia you had some very dedicated people (say scientists and bureaucrats who made things happen) and you also had very unproductive people who retained jobs they had contempt for. That said, with regard to health wellbeing we need a few things: -Reduce costs (cost per person…

Government regulations created the twisted non-market for healthcare that exists in the united states. Pretty please don't sign us up for more government. You know there are 7 big health care providers in my state building spectacular facilities as fast as they can, and they don't have to compete with each other? There's no competition. Every pleb goes dutifully to the assigned provider his employer sends him to. You…

Why do most people in the US seem to never look abroad when it comes to healthcare?

The US healthcare system is probably the most privatized in the developed world. The systems in other developed countries (e.g. any European country) give more weight to the government, and have been shown by all sorts of metric to work much better. How can you still say "don't sign us up for more government"?

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