Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society • Hacker News Board

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#11

Post by haberman » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 3:08 AM UTC

The more time goes by, the more I am wary of the false dilemma.

Almost anytime I see someone argue "you might think it's because of X, but it's really because of Y," the person speaking is selling a particular ideology. That ideology magnifies Y and minimizes X.

It would be perfectly fine to say "you might be aware of X, but you should also be aware of Y." But pieces like this don't do that. They seek to tell you you are wrong if you think X. It doesn't sit will with people who have personally experienced X.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#12

Post by mc32 » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 3:22 AM UTC

I have no idea how to solve the poverty issue. I don't think there is a way other than subsidizing a portion of the population. Even in Soviet Russia you had some very dedicated people (say scientists and bureaucrats who made things happen) and you also had very unproductive people who retained jobs they had contempt for.

That said, with regard to health wellbeing we need a few things:

-Reduce costs (cost per person is astronomical compared to other developed countries)

-Provide Basic Universal healthcare for all citizens (elevate the health of the average person to a sustainable level)

-Allow insurance for people who want to insure against grey swan health issues. Ensure this remains "affordable".

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#13

Post by sidlls » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 3:34 AM UTC

haberman wrote: post #11

The more time goes by, the more I am wary of the false dilemma. Almost anytime I see someone argue "you might think it's because of X, but it's really because of Y," the person speaking is selling a particular ideology. That ideology magnifies Y and minimizes X. It would be perfectly fine to say "you might be aware of X, but you should also be aware of Y." But pieces like this don't do that. They seek to tell you you…

Sometimes, perhaps often, "people who have personally experienced X" don't realize their experience is an exception to the rule.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#14

Post by tcbawo » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 3:39 AM UTC

jimmies wrote: post #2

Regarding blaming each other for their misfortune, I have an anecdotal experience I want to share. I don't know if that's just me or this phenomenal happens to everyone else as well: That's the "fuck you/who cares/deal with it" attitude. The "fuck you" attitude can be summarized as people won't go the extra mile to help other people. It is the non-sympathy, non-action I get from everyday people (including the police)…

I grew up in a small town in the Midwest and one thing I've noticed is income stratification has had an impact. It used to be more prevalent for your police officer, postman, waitress, or hairdresser to be able to afford to live in your town. Their kids would go to school with your kids, or you might go to the same church. But a lot more families struggle while others have done very well. I see a huge disparity in incomes (even within my extended family). This is amplified by the perception that many achieved this by luck or without hard work. Unfortunately, I think that makes people much less likely to empathize with each other.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#15

Post by sidlls » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 3:44 AM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #4

Staying out of poverty is simple. By in large it takes three things: graduate high school, maintain employment, and don't have children out of wedlock. These three things are important to remember whenever we're discussing social policy. Any policy that subsidizes or encourages people to not do those three things is a social policy that behaves like a poverty factory.

That's just far too simplistic to be accurate. Poverty is a complex issue and avoiding it requires substantial luck that those who have managed to do so often don't seem to realize they've benefitted from.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#16

Post by Inconel » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 3:46 AM UTC

sidlls wrote: post #13

haberman wrote: post #11

The more time goes by, the more I am wary of the false dilemma. Almost anytime I see someone argue "you might think it's because of X, but it's really because of Y," the person speaking is selling a particular ideology. That ideology magnifies Y and minimizes X. It would be perfectly fine to say "you might be aware of X, but you should also be aware of Y." But pieces like this don't do that. They seek to tell you you…

Sometimes, perhaps often, "people who have personally experienced X" don't realize their experience is an exception to the rule.

I agree. Although to be fair, I think there is somewhat of a difference between saying "your experience is valid, though it may be an outlier" vs discounting the experience altogether.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#17

Post by sokoloff » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 3:53 AM UTC

jimmies wrote: post #6

imaginenore wrote: post #3

As a really poor immigrant to the US who succeeded financially, I can tell you with absolute certainty, poverty in the US (barring mental illness cases or health issues) is the result of poor choices. Most of it stems from society's lack of planning for the future of the young people. Young people are consistently being told lies like "you can be anything you want", forgetting to tell them that most of the fun choice…

>As a really poor immigrant to the US who succeeded financially, I can tell you with absolute certainty, poverty in the US (barring mental illness cases or health issues) is the result of poor choices. I'm an immigrant too, and I used to think I was in a bad situation. However, I think you don't understand how bad it could get for some American people. Being a poor immigrant won't give you a free pass when you talk a…

> The whole family depended on him and at the time had no social security. He complained to me about his sister's boyfriend stealing food from his fridge. Now, how the fuck do you blame him for being poor because of making poor choices? What choices could he make?

I respect what he's trying to do to support his family, but at some point, you have to put on your own oxygen mask first before helping others.

IMO, he can choose to support his family to the extent that he's doing (and many people would), but recognize that that's a choice.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#18

Post by l_t » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 4:03 AM UTC

jimmies wrote: post #2

Regarding blaming each other for their misfortune, I have an anecdotal experience I want to share. I don't know if that's just me or this phenomenal happens to everyone else as well: That's the "fuck you/who cares/deal with it" attitude. The "fuck you" attitude can be summarized as people won't go the extra mile to help other people. It is the non-sympathy, non-action I get from everyday people (including the police)…

I notice this as well. I think a lot of it comes down to modern society being so complex that most people are unwilling or unable to do anything "extra" like that, at least not regularly. Not only that, but companies and governments are so complex that they resort to bureaucracy as a way to attempt to make things predictable.

Every action people take is driven by such a complex web of incentives these days, that risk-aversion is often seen as the pragmatic option.

Having said that, I will say that I am often pleasantly surprised by how thoughtful and considerate people can be to each other in general. But I do think that risk-averse "fuck you" treatment is on the rise, especially when dealing with people at work being asked to make difficult decisions. Risk aversion is corporate policy.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#19

Post by mikeash » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 4:07 AM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #4

Staying out of poverty is simple. By in large it takes three things: graduate high school, maintain employment, and don't have children out of wedlock. These three things are important to remember whenever we're discussing social policy. Any policy that subsidizes or encourages people to not do those three things is a social policy that behaves like a poverty factory.

Just get a job! Brilliant! Why don't all these poor people think of that?

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#20

Post by droopyEyelids » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 4:11 AM UTC

haberman wrote: post #11

The more time goes by, the more I am wary of the false dilemma. Almost anytime I see someone argue "you might think it's because of X, but it's really because of Y," the person speaking is selling a particular ideology. That ideology magnifies Y and minimizes X. It would be perfectly fine to say "you might be aware of X, but you should also be aware of Y." But pieces like this don't do that. They seek to tell you you…

I don't know... there are such things as facts.

In 2014, "Vulnerable Populations" made up 80% of the poor in the USA. That essentially means children and the elderly. On top of that, it's like another 7% of people that are in poverty that are fully employed!

http://www.demos.org/blog/10/23/15/2014-vulnerable-populatio...